Southwest Chief derailment (June 2022)

[zephyr17]

But it doesn’t even have to be 15 -

“If a train is traveling faster than 60 mph, engineers will not sound the horn until it is within ¼ mile of the crossing, even if the advance warning is less than 15 seconds.”

Even if it’s 15-20 I’m not sure that’s enough i time for a loaded truck who has to clear 2 tracks from a complete stop. NTSB results will be very interesting and may change some RR rules.

Then if they had not been absolutely certain about clearing it in they should have not proceeded through the crossing. In fact, knowing they had a heavy, slow truck, they shouldn't have even considered proceeding. Hearing the horn shouldn't be the starting gun for a race. 15-20 seconds is plenty of warning to stop.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Then if they had not been absolutely certain about clearing it in they should have not proceeded through the crossing. In fact, knowing they had a heavy, slow truck, they shouldn't have even considered proceeding. Hearing the horn shouldn't be the starting gun for a race. 15-20 seconds is plenty of warning to stop.

I’m suggesting that the truck driver could have stopped (at the stop sign) - not heard anything, and proceeded before the first horn. 20 seconds would not necessarily be enough time to clear from a dead stop.

 

[Eric in East County]

How long will it be before the NTSB’s preliminary investigation findings are made public? Will there be any NTSB recommendations regarding operational changes that need to be made now rather than waiting until the full report is issued?

 

[SarahZ]

I have never paid attention but how easy it it to remove the inside window of a Sleeper room to gain access to the corridor. If you are on the downside of a car on its side and the sliding door is jammed, that window may be your only escape/

You could probably use your suitcase to (carefully) break the glass. Simply shoving the center, with your suitcase as added pressure, might pop it out rather than breaking it. I've never really studied it.

You'd want to watch out for other people, of course.

 

[Ryan]

I’m suggesting that the truck driver could have stopped (at the stop sign) - not heard anything, and proceeded before the first horn. 20 seconds would not necessarily be enough time to clear from a dead stop.

While I advocated on behalf of the blind earlier, it's a fair assumption that this particular truck driver probably wasn't blind and thus could have seen the train land before it started on the horn.

 

[Eric in East County]

We now travel with a “tactical pen,” a ballpoint pen contained in a heavy-duty body machined from a solid block of aircraft aluminum which is then coated with titanium. Strong and durable, one end of this pen is pointed and, in an emergency can be used to break out a glass window or serve as a self-defense tool. (We anticipate that, during our upcoming trip, we’ll only use it as a pen.)

 

[joelkfla]

So it’s very likely that a train traveling at 90 MPH would not sound a horn in time to give ample warning to a loaded dump truck who has to accelerate from a complete stop and cross over 2 railroad tracks on a gravel road.

1/4 mi. at 90 mph is 10 seconds.

 

[Ryan]

So would I.

I don't have any data on train vs vehicle

Fortunately, The Internet does! Let's look at number of collisions and deaths as a result over time:


Wow, you're right - there is a huge change over time!

(but if you look at the tiny numbers at the bottom, the x-axis is reversed, so 2021 is at the left - looks like both collisions and fatalities have gone down significantly in the last 40 years!)

May not be "actual data" - just what I have seen with my own eyes over the past 56 years driving on that road and in the college town.

As we've seen, it isn't data, and the conclusions drawn from it are completely backwards.

 

[Cal]

As we've seen, it isn't data, and the conclusions drawn from it are completely backwards.

(but if you look at the tiny numbers at the bottom, the x-axis is reversed, so 2021 is at the left - looks like both collisions and fatalities have gone down significantly in the last 40 years!)

Maybe because of the media and technology we hear about it much more (like whenever it happens) vs just locally when the media wasn't here

 

[cirdan]

Maybe because of the media and technology we hear about it much more (like whenever it happens) vs just locally when the media wasn't here

The fact that we do hear about these things reflects how rare they are. The media don't typically give so much time to incidents that occur often.

Objectively speaking, a far greater number people are killed in road accidents every day. But other than maybe a mention in the local news, this doesn't cause much of a ripple. And nobody speaks about putting up barriers or other fancy gadgets at road-road intersections.

 

[John819]

There is reporting bias based on what the public "wants" to hear. One person killed when a broken engine blade penetrated the aircraft cabin got more coverage than the four killed in the SWC collision. The number killed in "mass shootings" is far less than the number killed in individual street violence.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And nobody speaks about putting up barriers or other fancy gadgets at road-road intersections.

People do speak up for traffic lights / warning lights / traffic circles, etc. at intersections where there are known issues.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

People do speak up for traffic lights / warning lights / traffic circles, etc. at intersections where there are known issues.

I've complained about the lack of 4-way stop signs at the intersection where traffic to the local grade school crosses a state highway going through our town for decades (including the 6 years when I served on the library board -- my most active participation in local government), but nothing has been done. (At least a traffic light has been installed at the intersection near I-55 where most of the fast-food places in town are located! That has both greatly improved the safety of driving in that part of town, and gives the drivers' ed. students at the high school a traffic light to practice on before taking their driver's license exams.)

 

[Qapla]

As we've seen, it isn't data, and the conclusions drawn from it are completely backwards.

It may not be the data that you posted - however, two things about my comments:

1. The comments about the students ignoring protocol and walking in traffic without looking is not just "my conclusion". I have seen the changes over the years from students waiting for traffic to just walking without looking - and it's not just me. Due to the problem of more students getting struck by cars and/or close calls, there have been recent changes made to these roads ... all aimed at the vehicles, and none aimed at the students.
2. One of the reasons for the overpass being built at the RR crossing near us was the increase of "close calls" of car vs train - as reported in the local newspaper.

I'm sure where I live is not an isolated condition of people ignoring driving and/or walking habits that used to be followed 30-40 years ago as can be seen here

According to a study by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety that examined police records nationally, there were more than 1,250 incidents of road rage on average reported per year between 1990–1996 in the United States. Many of these incidents have ended with serious injuries or fatalities. These rates rose yearly throughout the six years of the study. A number of studies have found that individuals with road rage are predominantly young (33 years old on average) and 96.6% male.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_rage

Regardless, it would be ideal if all grade crossings had idiot-proof gates - but that is impractical. Solar powered flashing lights seems like a much lower-cost preventative measure that could easily be installed. However, nothing will help more than drivers simply stopping, looking and listening before crossing tracks where there are no gates - and using common sense and quit trying to beat-the-train.

 

[crescent2]

There is no way sunlight will be a factor.
1. Truck was north bound.
2. Driver would have turned to look SW along the train track. Needs to look left 135 degrees from straigh ahead ( North )
3. Time of accident near 1PM daylight time puts sun time somewere between 1130 and 1200. Sun would be near zenith.

Thanks for this info. I knew the road crossed at a sharp diagonal to the tracks. With brush obstructing the view farther down from the crossing, it might be difficult to see an approaching train.

If there are no nearby crossings there may be no distant train horns to hear. I don't know how far the closest crossing is, though.

In Temple, GA, there is a grade crossing that has a short, steep incline on one side. In a car you are looking at sky and can't see the road or tracks, but the streets and incline are paved, and the crossing has lights and gates and trains aren't going very fast. Also, the street runs parallel to the tracks, so the stop sign is actually on a level street, then you make a 90 degree turn onto the incline to the tracks. Nevertheless, I take a small detour to avoid that crossing because of the steep incline. I drive a Camry which has no problem accelerating from a full stop on a paved surface.

I can't imagine having to start a heavily loaded dump truck from a dead stop on a gravel incline with trains running 90 mph and limited visibility. At 90 mph a quarter-mile goes by fast. I'm surprised there aren't whistle posts (if they use those in the Midwest) farther from that crossing to tell the engineer to blow the horn sooner than normal.

Of course, it's still the driver's responsibility to be sure it is safe and there is time to cross, but this does seem like an unusually hazardous, more difficult crossing, especially for heavily loaded trucks.

And it's true there are not unlimited funds. At a minimum, all the brush should be cleared so there is good visibility and the trains should blow the horn from farther away. Those measures wouldn't cost much money.

 

[Jack Davis]

From the video showing most of the cars upright, and little exterior damage, what are the odds any of these cars will eventually be put back in service?

I think the odds are high that those cars will be back on the rails after some 'dusting off' and replacing 'outed' windows and other damaged items. Those Super-Liner cars are too expensive to just sit around on a siding not being utilized for revenue service.

 

[zephyr17]

BNSF uses whistle post roadway signs throughout their network. They are placed to give at least FRA required warning minimum 15 seconds warning at maximum track speed.

Irrespective of that, crews must be qualified on the territory they operate on and are required to know where all grade crossings are (among other things, like speed restricted curves) and sound the horn for those crossings starting 15-20 seconds before reaching the crossing without being dependent on roadway signs.

Note the FRA reg on blowing horns at crossings is expressed in  time, not distance. The grade crossing horn warning pattern must start being sounded at least 15 seconds before reaching the crossing, whether the train is going 10 mph or 90 mph.

When the horn was sounded will be in the event recorder, as will brake applications, etc. Precisely when the horn was sounded will certainly be in the NTSB report and, if they consider the timing of the horn sounding was a contributing factor, they will call that out, whether it was compliant with regs or not. Of course, if it did not comply with regs, they'll call that out, too.

 

[Jack Davis]

From the video showing most of the cars upright, and little exterior damage, what are the odds any of these cars will eventually be put back in service?

From the video showing most of the cars upright, and little exterior damage, what are the odds any of these cars will eventually be put back in service?

After some 'dusting off' and replacing 'outed' windows and other items damaged by the derailment, I wouldn't be surprised that the Super-Liner cars involved will be back on the rails asap. Those cars make revenue but not when out of service. Now however, an overturned car where people were killed in it; that may haunt some folks if they knew what had happened in there prior. Airlines eliminate flight numbers after a disaster. Perhaps Amtrak will change car I.D's on the units involved.

 

[zephyr17]

Perhaps Amtrak will change car I.D's on the units involved.

Nobody but some railfans (those in the rivet counter tribe) are interested in or have any idea of what the physical car numbers are, and the car line numbers (like "430") have not been reported widely, if they have been reported at all.

Amtrak has never changed the train name or number after any wreck with fatalities either, which would be the closer analog to airline practice. The Cascades are still the Cascades after the Nisqually wreck, the Empire Builder is still the Empire Builder after going on the ground and flipping over some cars at Joplin, MT. The Silver Star is still the Silver Star after having a head on with a freight train at Cayce, SC. The Sunset Limited is still the Sunset Limited after having plunged into Bayou Canot (though that segment of the Sunset is no longer operating for unrelated reasons).

 

[MARC Rider]

Amtrak has never changed the train name or number after any wreck with fatalities either, which would be the closer analog to airline practice.

Northeast Regional #188 might beg to disagree with that. Soon after the Frankford Junction wreck, they started calling the train that left Washington at 7:10 PM "Northeast Regional #186." I think 186 ran up until the Covid cutbacks, not sure if it's been restored, thanks to the new (lack of) timetable situation.

(Fun fact: I was actually riding in 188 om the night of the wreck. Fortunately for me, I got off in Baltimore.)

 

[BlackDiamond]

Northeast Regional #188 might beg to disagree with that. Soon after the Frankford Junction wreck, they started calling the train that left Washington at 7:10 PM "Northeast Regional #186." I think 186 ran up until the Covid cutbacks, not sure if it's been restored, thanks to the new (lack of) timetable situation.

(Fun fact: I was actually riding in 188 om the night of the wreck. Fortunately for me, I got off in Baltimore.)

186 is currently running with a departure at WAS of 8:30 PM

 

[zephyr17]

Northeast Regional #188 might beg to disagree with that. Soon after the Frankford Junction wreck, they started calling the train that left Washington at 7:10 PM "Northeast Regional #186." I think 186 ran up until the Covid cutbacks, not sure if it's been restored, thanks to the new (lack of) timetable situation.

(Fun fact: I was actually riding in 188 om the night of the wreck. Fortunately for me, I got off in Baltimore.)

Hmm, interesting. They didn't change the train number of the Cascades involved in the fatal Nisqually wreck, 501. 501 continued to operate until COVID.

Certainly train 7 (Joplin), train 2 (Bayou Canot), train 91 (Cayce, SC), train 6 (Fallon, NV) all fatals, all widely reported and some much worse than this one (Bayou Canot and Fallon), all kept their numbers and names. I do not expect the Southwest Chief to be renumbered or renamed.

 

[Railspike]

Just wondering if more people today are trying to "beat the train" across crossings because of the long, 1-2 mile slow-moving freight trains. They can't tell from the locomotive light (or when the gates are down) whether it's a slow freight coming or a fast passenger train. Crossing Roulette!! Seems that patience wears thin these days.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It is unlikely that these drivers were hit the first time they fouled a grade crossing. It is much more likely they've been doing this for years or even decades before their luck finally ran out. Maybe instead of more lights and barriers we need more cameras. Penalize those that put trains at serious risk (commercial trucks, construction equipment, farming vehicles, etc.) and play actual impact videos as public service alerts for everyone else. Painting cute messages on locomotives is not working so how about clips that show what happens when years of reckless behavior lead to another predictable conclusion?

 

[Cal]

After some 'dusting off' and replacing 'outed' windows and other items damaged by the derailment, I wouldn't be surprised that the Super-Liner cars involved will be back on the rails asap. Those cars make revenue but not when out of service. Now however, an overturned car where people were killed in it;

Hhmm, does anyone know if the EB cars re-entered service? When did they?