Southwest Chief derailment (June 2022)

[Cal]

While this is true, the fear of being trapped in there after a crash is too much for me. At least with the roomettes, you generally have a window to escape from (either your own or the one across the hall, depending on how the car ends up).

Unless there is something blocking the door from opening I'm not sure how one can be trapped in the restroom unless the car has been SERIOUSLY mangled (has that ever happened?). I feel like the door would be fairly easy to break open.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Unless there is something blocking the door from opening I'm not sure how one can be trapped in the restroom unless the car has been SERIOUSLY mangled (has that ever happened?). I feel like the door would be fairly easy to break open.

https://www.komu.com/news/midmissou...cle_92f752ca-f713-11ec-a55b-cf0faa3c40cc.html

Another passenger and Boy Scout Dean Seaborn was in the bathroom at the time of the crash. He said water was leaking and screws were falling out, and he couldn’t move the door.

“Two men helped me lift the door up and they got me out," Seaborn said. "When I got out I didn’t realize how bad it was."

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Unless there is something blocking the door from opening I'm not sure how one can be trapped in the restroom unless the car has been SERIOUSLY mangled (has that ever happened?). I feel like the door would be fairly easy to break open.

When the City of New Orleans crashed many years ago passengers were trapped in roomettes. It’s why every room now has an emergency window.

 

[user 14106]

If they propose seat restraints - why not? Even if they provided them it wouldn’t necessarily mean they’d have to make them mandatory for riders to keep them on. But it would make it available for those who wish to - and it’s likely restraints would make a difference in such an event.

 

[SteveSFL]

While this is true, the fear of being trapped in there after a crash is too much for me. At least with the roomettes, you generally have a window to escape from (either your own or the one across the hall, depending on how the car ends up).

Yes I guess with the roomette door being a slider it’s less likely something could block it from swinging open. And you could always break the door glass if it did jam.

 

[cirdan]

Yes I guess with the roomette door being a slider it’s less likely something could block it from swinging open. And you could always break the door glass if it did jam.

I can't remember now. Is the rail of the sliding door on the inside or the outside of the roomette? I mean, in case something did block it, is this a situation you could remedy yourself?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

[The] first big personal-injury case my husband's law firm won involved an ungated (and with unlighted cross-buck signs) freight crossing [...] with 4 teenagers in a car with the radio going who couldn't hear the train horn being killed. The brush along the tracks had never been cut back by the railroad, so even if the teenage driver had looked, it would have been extremely difficult to see the train coming.

The crossbuck is illuminated by your headlights as you stop to listen for a horn and confirm the crossing is free of threats and obstructions. If you drive through a crossing with no sense of self preservation then accept the results of the risks you chose to take. Emotional appeals for the sad fates of careless actions undermine the needs of actual victims who were behaving responsibly.

It’s true, trains are built to protect! But there is still the unfortunate truth that in less than a years time, there have been 5 deaths on board Amtrak trains due to crashes.

That sounds like a minuscule threat. Not just compared to driving but even getting out of a bathtub. How do people swayed by such figures get out of bed?

I don’t agree. If there were no lights, Bella, Gates, etc. and the visibility was low, that brings in many questions. It’s not illegal to drive if you are deaf or hard of hearing. There should be visual warnings anywhere that trains operate at high-er speeds (maybe 30 mph?).

The crossbucks and stop signs are visual warnings. Rather than turn the whole country into Disneyland maybe we should expect more from our drivers.

 

[Rasputin]

I once used the SSL restroom on the Portland section of the Empire Builder. When I came out the large female conductor angrily shouted at me, “That restroom is closed!”

I said, “How was I supposed to know that?”

She said, “Because this trash can is blocking it!”

I think you may have discovered one of the hiding places for the crew.

 

[UserNameRequired]

And while we are talking about restrooms, the regular “small” restrooms in the sleepers would probably be the best place to be during a crash. It’s so small you’re not going to accelerate much before striking the wall and you’re unlikely to be pummeled by any loose object unless the SCA has been kind enough to leave a can of air freshener or toilet cleaner on the counter.

Getting covered in manure coming out if the car gets sideways or upside started crossing my mind...

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

Getting covered in manure coming out if the car gets sideways or upside started crossing my mind...

At least alive but covered in s--- beats clean but dead!

 

[Qapla]

Stopping cars (vehicles) from being hit by trains is as simple as not driving on the tracks when a train is coming. It's like keeping pedestrians from being hit by EV's. It's as simple as pedestrians looking before they cross the street.

However, instead expecting pedestrians to look where they are going, they require the quiet electric car to make noise when it slows down so the pedestrian who isn't looking will know a car is there. Likewise, instead of "Stop, Look, Listen" - a fortune in outlay is called for to eliminate grade crossings and/or make idiot-proof crossing gates at all crossings.

When I was younger, many of the country crossings only had signs and crossbucks and traffic just stopped and made sure a train was not coming. It seemed to work since, rarely did a train ever hit a car. Now, those same crossings still only have signs and crossbucks but they have become extremely dangerous. What happened? The crossing didn't change - the drivers changed from those who stopped for the train to those who want to beat the train. But, hey, let's blame the train instead of the driver.

 

[Ryan]

However, instead expecting pedestrians to look where they are going, they require the quiet electric car to make noise when it slows down so the pedestrian who isn't looking will know a car is there.

People with vision impairments wave and say "hi".

I would love to see actual data on train/vehicle collisions adjusted for vehicle miles travelled over time to back up your claim that collisions are more common now because people are worse.

 

[John819]

As they say, common sense is not all that common. No way are we going to install quad gates at every grade crossing. But it should be possible, and practicable, to install flashing lights that can (1) be solar powered and (2) be activated by the PTC location.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I just looked up a video I took of the Chief at a similar crossing. I don’t believe it’s in 90 mph territory, probably 79, but I’m not sure. (It’s by a semaphore).

The video starts as the train is sounding the first horn - the entire video is 24 seconds long. Meaning from the first horn sounding until the train was completely past.... 24 seconds.

 

[TinCan782]

I just looked up a video I took of the Chief at a similar crossing. I don’t believe it’s in 90 mph territory, probably 79, but I’m not sure. (It’s by a semaphore).

The video starts as the train is sounding the first horn - the entire video is 24 seconds long. Meaning from the first horn sounding until the train was completely past.... 24 seconds.

from the FRA...
"Under the Train Horn Rule (49 CFR Part 222), locomotive engineers must begin to sound train horns at least 15 seconds, and no more than 20 seconds, in advance of all public grade crossings.
If a train is traveling faster than 60 mph, engineers will not sound the horn until it is within ¼ mile of the crossing, even if the advance warning is less than 15 seconds."
https://railroads.dot.gov/highway-r...orn-rulequiet-zones/train-horn-rule-and-quiet

 

[crescent-zephyr]

from the FRA...
"Under the Train Horn Rule (49 CFR Part 222), locomotive engineers must begin to sound train horns at least 15 seconds, and no more than 20 seconds, in advance of all public grade crossings.
If a train is traveling faster than 60 mph, engineers will not sound the horn until it is within ¼ mile of the crossing, even if the advance warning is less than 15 seconds."
https://railroads.dot.gov/highway-r...orn-rulequiet-zones/train-horn-rule-and-quiet

So it’s very likely that a train traveling at 90 MPH would not sound a horn in time to give ample warning to a loaded dump truck who has to accelerate from a complete stop and cross over 2 railroad tracks on a gravel road.

 

[zetharion]

So the faster the train goes the less time they are required to blow the horn?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

from the FRA...
"Under the Train Horn Rule (49 CFR Part 222), locomotive engineers must begin to sound train horns at least 15 seconds, and no more than 20 seconds, in advance of all public grade crossings.
If a train is traveling faster than 60 mph, engineers will not sound the horn until it is within ¼ mile of the crossing, even if the advance warning is less than 15 seconds."
https://railroads.dot.gov/highway-r...orn-rulequiet-zones/train-horn-rule-and-quiet

But that’s for Quiet Zones, right?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

But that’s for Quiet Zones, right?

Quiet zone would be no horn.

 

[Qapla]

I would love to see actual data on train/vehicle collisions adjusted for vehicle miles travelled over time to back up your claim that collisions are more common now because people are worse.

So would I.

I don't have any data on train vs vehicle - however

I live in a college town, and I can determine with my own eyes and experience driving that pedestrians (mostly college students) are more distracted with various electronic devices and/or earbuds on and simply cross the street when and where they want with no regard to what the cars are doing than they used to be. I can attest to the fact that, back in the 1960's and 1970's this was not the case.

Since we have a grade crossing with gates and lights near us that I used to have to cross at least twice daily, I can also attest to the fact that, prior to the road overpass that was built a couple years ago, more people "ran the gates" in recent times than ever used to 20- 40 years ago.

May not be "actual data" - just what I have seen with my own eyes over the past 56 years driving on that road and in the college town.

 

[TinCan782]

So the faster the train goes the less time they are required to blow the horn?

Sounded like that to me too. Surprising.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

However, instead expecting pedestrians to look where they are going, they require the quiet electric car to make noise when it slows down so the pedestrian who isn't looking will know a car is there.

There are some aspects of the mandatory noise rule that make little sense to me. Newer combustion engines also catch pedestrians off guard but those are not included in the rule. Targeting the drivetrain over relative noise levels is a flawed and irrational concept. The mandatory noise rule sounds like a solution searching for a problem that depending on your perspective may not exist or is unlikely to be solved by a rule this clumsy.

No way are we going to install quad gates at every grade crossing. But it should be possible, and practicable, to install flashing lights that can (1) be solar powered and (2) be activated by the PTC location.

I've often wondered why the only models approved for active signaling seem to cost six figures or more. It would be good to have cheaper options for low volume crossings.

So it’s very likely that a train traveling at 90 MPH would not sound a horn in time to give ample warning to a loaded dump truck who has to accelerate from a complete stop and cross over 2 railroad tracks on a gravel road.

Where I live you can hear horn blasts from two or three crossings away before the train announces itself for your crossing. If this crossing is so remote that no other crossing is near it then perhaps the rules should be changed to reflect this situation. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

 

[zephyr17]

So it’s very likely that a train traveling at 90 MPH would not sound a horn in time to give ample warning to a loaded dump truck who has to accelerate from a complete stop and cross over 2 railroad tracks on a gravel road.

15 to 20 seconds is 15 to 20 seconds. At 90 they start blowing the horn from a lot farther away then they do when going 10.

That's also why the horn has to be at least 96 db

 

[crescent-zephyr]

15 to 20 seconds is 15 to 20 seconds. At 90 they start blowing the horn from a lot farther away then they do when going 10.

That's also why the horn has to be at least 96 db

But it doesn’t even have to be 15 -

“If a train is traveling faster than 60 mph, engineers will not sound the horn until it is within ¼ mile of the crossing, even if the advance warning is less than 15 seconds.”

Even if it’s 15-20 I’m not sure that’s enough i time for a loaded truck who has to clear 2 tracks from a complete stop. NTSB results will be very interesting and may change some RR rules.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Yes I guess with the roomette door being a slider it’s less likely something could block it from swinging open. And you could always break the door glass if it did jam.

I have never paid attention but how easy it it to remove the inside window of a Sleeper room to gain access to the corridor. If you are on the downside of a car on its side and the sliding door is jammed, that window may be your only escape/