Sunset must go daily

[NativeSon5859]

Not that it will do any good, but I just concluded an intense writing campaign, sending off the below email to state Senators as well as local news stations in New Orleans and...for the hell of it...the DOT.

"I am writing today to complain about the status of Amtrak's Sunset Limited service between New Orleans and Orlando. As you may or may not know, the Sunset Limited, prior to Hurricane Katrina, was operating from Los Angeles to Orlando, via New Orleans. Ever since Katrina, Amtrak has not operated the New Orleans to Orlando segment. Initially...for well over a year...they blamed the service disruption on the hurricane. Indeed, the hurricane did destroy the tracks between New Orleans and Bay St. Louis, MS. The problem is, those were re-built in less than six months. Still, as the months progressed, Amtrak still used the same excuse.

I believe that Amtrak is required by law to provide a 180 day "train off" notice for communities along a route or a portion of a route which it is discontinuing service to. Thus far...nearly three years after the service east of New Orleans was cancelled...there has been no such notice. All of the stations between New Orleans and Orlando are still listed in the Amtrak national timetable (although no times are listed next to them), and the N.O-Orlando route is still listed on the national route map.

In my opinion, Amtrak is not being honest with the public here, and I expect more from them. Every time I contact them...generally every month...I get the same response every time: the service is currently suspended. And that's all. I'm sorry, but I have never heard of a three year "suspension" before.

From what I have read recently, the Amtrak CEO has said that the service is gone unless the states along the route (LA, MS, AL, and FL) step up and fund it; yet, before the storm, this portion of the route was not state supported. I cannot understand why such demands are being made now.

I personally feel that Amtrak is still using the hurricane as an excuse to keep the service suspended, and I would love to see Amtrak be held accountable for this. If they do not intend on bringing back the service for whatever reason, they need to step up to the plate and let the public know. By keeping the service listed as "suspended", it keeps all of the cities along the route...including Biloxi, Mobile, Pensacola, and Tallahassee...held in limbo. The way I see it, they are just keeping the service listed as "suspended" so that they don't lose the traffic rights to operate over the CSX railroad if they ever decide to operate a portion of the route again down the road.

I personally think this service should be started again as soon as possible. Amtrak President Alex Kummant said in a recent hearing that "there is no budget for it". That is interesting, because there was a budget for it before Katrina. I guess Mr. Kummant feels that the Gulf Coast is still in shambles and doesn't have the population base to support the service, which of course is utterly ridiculous. The Gulf Coast needs more transportation options, not less.

Anyway, thank you for your time in reading this. I hope this issue finds an outcome at some point. Amtrak service is vitally important for the New Orleans area, and it's a shame when our national railroad can't make up its mind...after three years...on what to do about this. I suppose Amtrak doesn't really consider the Gulf Coast region to be a vital market anymore, which is a shame. As a tax payer, I expect a lot more from them. "

 

[Guest_GP35_*]

It doesn't matter, Amfleet I or II or restored Heritage. Sunset between NOL-LA needs to go daily.

3 trainsets are needed, a 4th for replacing a broken coach. Amtrak would save money. Extra money

that could later go towards NOL-ORL.

 

[the_traveler]

If, as it appears, Sunset east of NOL is dead, we still need to effect a replacement for that part of the Sunset, to restore the southern transcon. What Amtrak doesn't seem to care about, or realize, or simply refuses to acknowledge, with or without actual or tacit goading from the administration, is that IT is supposed to be a NATIONAL rail system. And that -NATIONAL SYSTEM- MUST include the southern transcon route. That's Amtrak's responsibility, as the NATIONAL passenger rail SYSTEM, not the responsibility of the states along the route. If a state wants to begin an intrastate corridor, fine, require them to fund it to the extent that it doesn't cost Amtrak anything from it's national coffers. But the NATIONAL passenger rail SYSTEM is Amtrak's responsibility, not the states. And that MUST include the southern transcon.

Right!

In fact NATIONAL is part of the official name of Amtrak - the NATIONAL Passenger Rail Corporation! (Did I mix up the 2nd and 3rd words?) I don't see anywhere that it says "NPRC (except between NOL and JAX)"! I'm not saying there should be a route from say Rapid City to Colorado Springs or Nashville to Wichita, but if it is "national", it should allow you to travel from LAX to FL or TX to FL without having to go thru CHI and/or WAS!

 

[NativeSon5859]

At the very least, the Senators from LA, AL, MS and FL...if they read the letter I sent...will at least know of this issue if they were indifferent to it before.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

3 trainsets? Are you nuts? It would require 4 standard sets and, given its lateness, probably another 2 spares. 6 sets. Not 3, six.

That being said, Guest, I don't like you putting words in my mouth, so please stop. I never, NEVER, suggested killing the Sunset. I don't want a single train on the system killed. I have a list of about 2 dozen routes I want added or restored, not to mention doubling frequency on most of the current routes!

Today, the Sunset runs NOL to LAX, just the way it did the day Amtrak was formed. I don't know about you guys, but I have been collecting material to write a comprhensive history of Amtrak. Among this material is every single article the New York Times ran from the first mention of Railpax in 1970 until 1973! As such, I know what that "National System" is, probably better than you do!

That system includes the Broadway Limited (Long discontinued in favour of the not-included Lake Shore Limited), the National Limited, a train called and similar to the Empire Builder, a train known as the San Francisco Zephyr running much of the current California Zephyr route but cutting through Wyoming, the Super Chief (Now Southwest Chief), the Coast Starlight, the Texas Chief (roughly the Texas Eagle), the City of New Orleans still running as a daylight coach train, a Chicago to Florida train, the Silver Service including the Palmetto route all the way to (IIRC) Ft. Myers, the Champion, and the James Whitcomb Riley/George Washington, which we now call the Cardinal. It also included a variety of shorter distance trains such as the San Diegan (now Pacific Surfliner) and the NEC.

Excluding the Broadway Limited west of Pittsburgh, some of the stops along the Chicago/Florida route, much of the National Limited, and some stops that got bypassed due to reroutings and abandonments, that entire system is still served! Most of the '79 cuts, and '97 cuts involved trains that were added experimentally after the system was set! A Sunset Limited daily, and a Sunset Limited to Orlando (the so-called "Southern Transcon") are NOT part of that mandated national system, sorry.

Thats forgetting the part that the mandate to run that original system expired many years ago. Amtrak is not required to run that ORL-NOL service, period. They ARE required to give 180 days notice to cancel it, yes, but they are not legally required to run that particular route.

That being said, I wasn't advocating killing the Sunset. I simply don't think the cost metrics are there to justify running it daily, and I don't think the cost metrics are there to run it, as a single seat train, to Orlando. But it never in its history ran daily.

Here is the plan I advocate: Currently, the system runs with it not connecting NOL and ORL. That stays as it is. There are heavily under-utilized Superliner train sets that are sitting there due to that change. Those sets go to the Cardinal, which will run on its current schedule, but truncated to Washington with a dedicated connection train going to New York. It continues tri-weekly. The Viewliner cars that used to run on it go towards restoring sleeping service on the overnight Regional. The diner-lite can go to one of the really long day trains, perhaps the Palmetto bug. The Amfleet II coaches can go to increasing capacity on the other single-level trains. Or the Amfleet IIs and Amfleet Diner-Lite can go to a train called, say, the Gulf Breeze running on a fast day schedule from NOL to JAX.

You are thus sacrificing an underperforming route section, whilst restoring the southern Transcon, improving the Cardinal, and restoring the profitable NEC overnight sleeper service.

 

[George Harris]

Or the Amfleet IIs and Amfleet Diner-Lite can go to a train called, say, the Gulf Breeze running on a fast day schedule from NOL to JAX.

Not possible without spending a boatload of money for:

1. Signals Flomaton AL to Tallahassee FL so the max speed can be raised from 59 mph to 79 mph.

2. Add several long sidings Flomaton to Jacksonville, preferably with at least 40 mph turnouts.

3. Add sections of double track between New Orleans -Mobile - Flomaton

Even then, a day schedule would be pushing the rational limits for a day train. Remember a 79 mph speed limit does not mean you run the whole thing at 79 mph. The curve constraints are still there unless you want to spend another boatload of money.

 

[Guest]

You're the one nuts. You wanted Superliners on the NEC. Whats next? Acela on the Empire Builder route.

Between NOL-LA, Sunset needs 3 additional trainsets for daily service. If the trainsets are not Superliners, a 4th set.

 

[MrEd]

I don't think you can move the Acela to the empire builder route, maybe something around Orlando would work for it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Oi veigh, are you capable of reading comprehension? I never suggested Superliners be on the NEC. I didn't make a suggestion, I didn't imply one, I didn't even intimate one!

Superliners on the NEC would be a good thing if we managed to make the clearances- actually, a car more like the California cars would probably be ideal. But thats besides the point.

Currently the Cardinal runs New York to Chicago as a single level train. 4 years ago, before the Autotrain wreck, the train ran Washington to Chicago, entirely bypassing the NEC. The connection train of which I speak would OBVIOUSLY be an Amfleet/Horizon train!

Now do me a favour, ok? Before you reply again, read over everything I said. You obviously are reading things into it, possibly from some kind of hallucination, that aren't there.

 

[Guest]

Oi veigh, are you capable of reading comprehension? I never suggested Superliners be on the NEC. I didn't make a suggestion, I didn't imply one, I didn't even intimate one!
Superliners on the NEC would be a good thing if we managed to make the clearances- actually, a car more like the California cars would probably be ideal. But thats besides the point.

Currently the Cardinal runs New York to Chicago as a single level train. 4 years ago, before the Autotrain wreck, the train ran Washington to Chicago, entirely bypassing the NEC. The connection train of which I speak would OBVIOUSLY be an Amfleet/Horizon train!

Now do me a favour, ok? Before you reply again, read over everything I said. You obviously are reading things into it, possibly from some kind of hallucination, that aren't there.

..

BUT! The Superliners from that section of the Sunset Limited could be better used in other ways, such as making the Cardinal Superliner, and using its sleepers to restore the profitable "Twilight Shoreliner", the "Broadway Limited", or both.

Trains 66 and 67 (former Twilight Shoreliner/Federal)

The nightly Boston-Richmond 66/67 round trip was once the Twilight Shoreliner, with higher-class accommodations than other corridor trains. It is now simply another Regional train, but runs overnight.

The Twilight Shoreliner was the only name to survive the 1999 retirement of names due to its elevated level of service. The train first ran July 10, 1997 as a renaming and extension of the Boston-Washington Night Owl (trains 66 northbound and 67 southbound), which at one time also carried the New York-Washington Executive Sleeper (trains 866 and 867) to allow New York passengers to stay in their sleeping cars longer. At that time train 66 was split into 66 (Sunday to Thursday evenings) and 76 (Friday and Saturday evenings); they were rejoined as the daily 66 on April 29, 2001. On April 28, 2003 the 66 and 67 were cut back to Boston-Washington to allow Washington passengers to remain in their sleeping cars and renamed the Federal. The daily 76, weekend morning 75 and weekday morning 77 Regional trips provided connecting service beyond to Newport News. The November 1, 2004 schedule rejoined the separate trains into the northbound 66 and southbound 67, now Regional trains with no separate accommodations.

 

[SUNSETLIMITED02]

Guys you also have to think about a fact that geven if the Sunset service from New Orleans to Orlando does get restored and if a daily service is ever put on it may not be 8 superliners it could be like 6-8 sets of 10-12 superliners with a heritage baggage car. Places on the route east of New Orleans can be very busy and a lot do travel to these areas especially Florida.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

My understanding is that 40% of Sunset's passenger miles pre-Katrina were EAST of NOL, and that's less than 40% of the route miles. Second, running Acela through Orlando would require a VERY long extension cord.

 

[Rail Freak]

My understanding is that 40% of Sunset's passenger miles pre-Katrina were EAST of NOL, and that's less than 40% of the route miles. Second, running Acela through Orlando would require a VERY long extension cord.

I'll donate the first 50' out of TPA

 

[yoohoo]

I recently contacted the FL. Department of Transportation to inquire about when passenger rail service would be continued in the panhandle and west coast area. This was their response:

Amtrak travel between the two cities (Orlando and Pensacola). Please visit their Web site:http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...Amtrak/HomePage

Are they kidding me?? How could the Florida's own DOT not know there hasnt been rail service in the area for the last 3 years now!!!!

And after I corrected them, this was their followup response:

Must have been an old map. To my knowledge DOT has no plans for passenger rail service.

Great, then I have ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO TAKE THE TRAIN as it does not connect me to any nearby city!!!

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Until more equipment is available there is no need for talks of expansion or of increasing frequency. Amtrak is running at full capacity, you can't expand or increase frequency without cutting somewhere else. According to Kummant once Amtrak is given the green light to look for new equipment it will be 7 years or more before it can be put into service. So Amtrak is basically going to have to trundle along and manage the equipment it has the best it can for at least 7 years, personally I think 10 would be more reasonable. Equipment should be Amtrak's top priority, but without congress approval little money will be available. Amtrak could take out another DOT loan but would have even more debt service to deal with.

NOL-ORL/MIA is not returning as a full sleeper train, it is in the process of being returned as a corridor service paid for by the states involved. Kummant confirmed this in a article posted earlier in this topic.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Trains 66 and 67 (former Twilight Shoreliner/Federal)The nightly Boston-Richmond 66/67 round trip was once the Twilight Shoreliner, with higher-class accommodations than other corridor trains. It is now simply another Regional train, but runs overnight.

The Twilight Shoreliner was the only name to survive the 1999 retirement of names due to its elevated level of service. The train first ran July 10, 1997 as a renaming and extension of the Boston-Washington Night Owl (trains 66 northbound and 67 southbound), which at one time also carried the New York-Washington Executive Sleeper (trains 866 and 867) to allow New York passengers to stay in their sleeping cars longer. At that time train 66 was split into 66 (Sunday to Thursday evenings) and 76 (Friday and Saturday evenings); they were rejoined as the daily 66 on April 29, 2001. On April 28, 2003 the 66 and 67 were cut back to Boston-Washington to allow Washington passengers to remain in their sleeping cars and renamed the Federal. The daily 76, weekend morning 75 and weekday morning 77 Regional trips provided connecting service beyond to Newport News. The November 1, 2004 schedule rejoined the separate trains into the northbound 66 and southbound 67, now Regional trains with no separate accommodations.

*sits and stares in sheer astonishment at you*

The Cardinal runs a viewliner, an Amfleet diner lite, and a few Amfleet coaches per set. The diner lite and Coaches go to something else. The VIEWLINER sleepers previously on the Cardinal get placed on 66/67 as they have been. The Cardinal gets truncated to WAS and runs Superliner. Where the heck in this are Superliners running the Corridor?

 

[Guest]

Trains 66 and 67 (former Twilight Shoreliner/Federal)The nightly Boston-Richmond 66/67 round trip was once the Twilight Shoreliner, with higher-class accommodations than other corridor trains. It is now simply another Regional train, but runs overnight.

The Twilight Shoreliner was the only name to survive the 1999 retirement of names due to its elevated level of service. The train first ran July 10, 1997 as a renaming and extension of the Boston-Washington Night Owl (trains 66 northbound and 67 southbound), which at one time also carried the New York-Washington Executive Sleeper (trains 866 and 867) to allow New York passengers to stay in their sleeping cars longer. At that time train 66 was split into 66 (Sunday to Thursday evenings) and 76 (Friday and Saturday evenings); they were rejoined as the daily 66 on April 29, 2001. On April 28, 2003 the 66 and 67 were cut back to Boston-Washington to allow Washington passengers to remain in their sleeping cars and renamed the Federal. The daily 76, weekend morning 75 and weekday morning 77 Regional trips provided connecting service beyond to Newport News. The November 1, 2004 schedule rejoined the separate trains into the northbound 66 and southbound 67, now Regional trains with no separate accommodations.

*sits and stares in sheer astonishment at you*

The Cardinal runs a viewliner, an Amfleet diner lite, and a few Amfleet coaches per set. The diner lite and Coaches go to something else. The VIEWLINER sleepers previously on the Cardinal get placed on 66/67 as they have been. The Cardinal gets truncated to WAS and runs Superliner. Where the heck in this are Superliners running the Corridor?

BUT! The Superliners from that section of the Sunset Limited could be better used in other ways, such as making the Cardinal Superliner, and using its sleepers to restore the profitable "Twilight Shoreliner", the "Broadway Limited", or both.

 

[Ryan]

BUT! The Superliners from that section of the Sunset Limited could be better used in other ways, such as making the Cardinal Superliner, and using its sleepers to restore the profitable "Twilight Shoreliner", the "Broadway Limited", or both.

Yes, and as he clearly stated, the Cardinal he's talking about is a truncated version that terminates at WAS.
So where again are you getting Superliners on the NEC from? :huh:

 

[Guest]

BUT! The Superliners from that section of the Sunset Limited could be better used in other ways, such as making the Cardinal Superliner, and using its sleepers to restore the profitable "Twilight Shoreliner", the "Broadway Limited", or both.

Yes, and as he clearly stated, the Cardinal he's talking about is a truncated version that terminates at WAS.
So where again are you getting Superliners on the NEC from? :huh:

Here is the full post, where does it say terminate in WAS? He said it after Alan explained it to him.

You've got to be kidding me. You seriously have got to be kidding me, right? The Sunset as an all coach train? Amtrak has NO spare single level sleepers, single level diners, and few single level cafes- I don't think they have spare lounges, either. Amtrak doesn't have enough single level sleepers and diners for the trains they do run- and all fifty of the Viewliner's built by Morrison-Knudson are in service! Amtrak does not have the equipment to run this daily from Orlando to LAX. The train has never NEVER run daily under Amtrak.
Perhaps the train could be made to run daily NOL to LAX. But not LAX to ORL. No.

BUT! The Superliners from that section of the Sunset Limited could be better used in other ways, such as making the Cardinal Superliner, and using its sleepers to restore the profitable "Twilight Shoreliner", the "Broadway Limited", or both.

 

[darjel]

At an absolute minimum, you could do a bus ( I know) ORL-NOL

 

[the_traveler]

BUT! The Superliners from that section of the Sunset Limited could be better used in other ways, such as making the Cardinal Superliner, and using its sleepers to restore the profitable "Twilight Shoreliner", the "Broadway Limited", or both.

Yes, and as he clearly stated, the Cardinal he's talking about is a truncated version that terminates at WAS.
So where again are you getting Superliners on the NEC from? :huh:

Here is the full post, where does it say terminate in WAS? He said it after Alan explained it to him.

You've got to be kidding me. You seriously have got to be kidding me, right? The Sunset as an all coach train? Amtrak has NO spare single level sleepers, single level diners, and few single level cafes- I don't think they have spare lounges, either. Amtrak doesn't have enough single level sleepers and diners for the trains they do run- and all fifty of the Viewliner's built by Morrison-Knudson are in service! Amtrak does not have the equipment to run this daily from Orlando to LAX. The train has never NEVER run daily under Amtrak.
Perhaps the train could be made to run daily NOL to LAX. But not LAX to ORL. No.

BUT! The Superliners from that section of the Sunset Limited could be better used in other ways, such as making the Cardinal Superliner, and using its sleepers to restore the profitable "Twilight Shoreliner", the "Broadway Limited", or both.

What he was saying is to make to Cardinal Superliner (as it was) but truncate it at WAS (as it was)! Superliners can not - even if they tried - operate on the NEC!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I didn't say it in my initial post because I figured that on this board, in the presence of people who know Amtrak, the NEC, the Cardinal's history as a Superliner train, and the concept of train car gauge, would know what I meant. Unfortunately, I overestimated one of those people. *shrug*

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Superliners can not - even if they tried - operate on the NEC!

I bet if you just wanted to operate a Superliner between Boston and New Haven, and either happened to pick stations with low platforms or were willing to go through a single level (or commuter bi-level) car on your way to a high platform, Superliners would work just fine.

 

[AlanB]

Superliners can not - even if they tried - operate on the NEC!

I bet if you just wanted to operate a Superliner between Boston and New Haven, and either happened to pick stations with low platforms or were willing to go through a single level (or commuter bi-level) car on your way to a high platform, Superliners would work just fine.

Hmm, I'm not so sure of that. IIRC if they hung the catenary high enough in all places so as to clear the height of a Superliner. I also can't recall if I've ever seen double stacks on the corridor.

And boarding/detraining through one single level car at South Station, Back Bay, and Route 128 would be a nightmare. It would also tie up the BBY and RTE platforms for longer than they'd like.

 

[Ryan]

Superliners can not - even if they tried - operate on the NEC!

I bet if you just wanted to operate a Superliner between Boston and New Haven, and either happened to pick stations with low platforms or were willing to go through a single level (or commuter bi-level) car on your way to a high platform, Superliners would work just fine.

Hmm, I'm not so sure of that. IIRC if they hung the catenary high enough in all places so as to clear the height of a Superliner. I also can't recall if I've ever seen double stacks on the corridor.

And boarding/detraining through one single level car at South Station, Back Bay, and Route 128 would be a nightmare. It would also tie up the BBY and RTE platforms for longer than they'd like.

You suspicion is correct, even if the catenary were good, the tunnel in Baltimore would prohibit this.