Sunset must go daily

[Green Maned Lion]

IIRC, most or all of them are simply awaiting scrapping.

 

[the_traveler]

Recently I tried to book a trip to Phoenix but found no connection possible from the sunset.

The System Timetable says Maricopa counts as Phoenix. Not sure how realistic that is.

In no way is it in the realm of reality unless you can con a family member or s.o. to take you, drop you off and pick you up( I've never even been brave enough to ask).

It may count as Phoenix, but Maricopa is many miles south of Phoenix - and there is no transportation to Phoenix. In fact, if you request to go from say NYP or WAS to Phoenix, it will route you on the SWC to FLG and a thruway bus to Phoenix!

I agree, I was brave only once to as a "friend" (who actually volunteered B)) to give me a ride to NDL so I could catch the SWC ~2 AM!

At one point (many years ago), the SL did stop in Phoenix proper. But then after the derailment just west of there, and later abandonment of that line, it started serving Maricopa instead.

 

[George Harris]

At one point (many years ago), the SL did stop in Phoenix proper. But then after the derailment just west of there, and later abandonment of that line, it started serving Maricopa instead.

Last I knew, the Phoenix West line was out of service, but still in place. However, that does not mean able to be put back in service cheaply. The track is/was some or in all in old, probably pre WW2 jointed 113 lb/yd rail, a section unique to Southern Pacific, and of course the ties are way old by now. The signal system is/was a non-upgraded 1920's automatic block with semaphores which is probably no longer functional, even if the various parts are still there.

At least, if it is still in place they have not lost the right of way.

If it were to be restored to use for passenger service, that is for something more than say 25 mph, I would suspect that the whole track structure would need replacing from the subgrade up, plus the signals would need complete replacing as well. Therefore a cost of something on the order of $2 million plus per mile would be in the ballpark.

 

[had8ley]

Let's not forget that the S/L derailment west of Phoenix was proven to be sabotage. I'm not so sure the track is welded rail either as the saboteur evidently removed a section of rail. My memory is very foggy on this as I believe it happened in the middle '90's. Any help George?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Are you thinking of the Palo Verde derailment?

 

[George Harris]

Let's not forget that the S/L derailment west of Phoenix was proven to be sabotage. I'm not so sure the track is welded rail either as the saboteur evidently removed a section of rail. My memory is very foggy on this as I believe it happened in the middle '90's. Any help George?

The track was fixed and the train ran a few more years after the derailment, if I recall correctly. The rail was jointed. The sabatour did not remove a section of rail. He removed a joint bar, shifted one rail over slightly and applied some sort of jumper cable so the break was invisible to the signal system. This was done on a curve in approach to a steel bridge of a couple of spans. Somebody left a note purporting to be a group never heard of before or since called the sons of the ***** or something like that.

The press was at their typical best. They called the steel bridge a trestle, and called the 1920's era ABS system a "computerized control system"

Another little tidbit: Somebody had written an article for a fan magazine on the City of San Franciso unsolved sabatoge case that had occurred some 30 years earlier that came out about the time of this derailment and he got some heavy attention from the FBI.

The FBI also pronounced that there was a limited pool of suspect becuase the perpertrator had to have specialized knowledge of railroads. I would guess that the number of people in the US alone that would understand that what was done would both derail the train and not affect the signal system probably would be a couple million, at least: mjority of poeple that were living and still not in a nursing home at that time that had ever worked for a railroad would probably be somewhere over one million, maybe two. Add in those that are semi-serious fans, another million or so, Anybody with a more than rudimentary knowledge of electricity, 10 million plus??

Somewhat like FBI's first pronouncement after the Oklahoma City bombing: The prime suspects would be someone with access to ammonium nitrate fertilizer and diesel fuel in quantity, liked guns and who was unhappy about the way the government acted at Waco. Probably somewhere around 3/4 the rural population fit that description.

 

[Neil_M]

yeah right, Sure you did. Just like news analysis people needs to tell us what the canidates really meant to say.

Just keep telling yourself that, ok?

Amtrak also have 27 hurricane evacuation train coaches in NOL. Why couldn't these coaches be used to make a daily Sunset.The coaches could always be returned in case of a hurricane.

They could not, for the reason everyone else states. Also, the Sunset, running daily, would, in my opinion, lose even more money. In the event that Amtrak gets a ****load more equipment and can run all the other trains and routes to their full potential, then making the Sunset daily would be great. Until that time, concentrating on the less-loss-heavy routes, upgrading overall capacity, and improving service on routes that get decent ridership makes alot more sense.

I know we are not supposed to disagree with you,because you know everything about everything, but a service only running x times a week is not likely to generate that much custom anyway, even once a day is regular enough that people can plan trips around it. If you have to stop and work out what day you need to travel and if it coincides with the train running, then to the average customer/passenger that's not a good deal.

Maybe, just maybe, daily service might encourage more custom......

 

[had8ley]

Are you thinking of the Palo Verde derailment?

Yes, that's it!

 

[MrEd]

Are you thinking of the Palo Verde derailment?

Yes, that's it!

now it makes sense why they don't go to phoenix.

>>

PHOENIX, Arizona (CNN) -- The FBI is looking for a mysterious figure in a cowboy hat seen by passengers on Amtrak's Sunset Limited in the minutes after it derailed in the Arizona desert last Monday.>>

thanks for the link.

 

[George Harris]

It appears that the NTSB report of this accident is not to be found on line.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I know we are not supposed to disagree with you,because you know everything about everything, but a service only running x times a week is not likely to generate that much custom anyway, even once a day is regular enough that people can plan trips around it. If you have to stop and work out what day you need to travel and if it coincides with the train running, then to the average customer/passenger that's not a good deal.Maybe, just maybe, daily service might encourage more custom......

Of course it would increase customers. I believe such an increase, however, would be Pyrrhic.

 

[jis]

I know we are not supposed to disagree with you,because you know everything about everything, but a service only running x times a week is not likely to generate that much custom anyway, even once a day is regular enough that people can plan trips around it. If you have to stop and work out what day you need to travel and if it coincides with the train running, then to the average customer/passenger that's not a good deal.Maybe, just maybe, daily service might encourage more custom......

Of course it would increase customers. I believe such an increase, however, would be Pyrrhic.

I think the issue is that given a set of limited resources what is the best way to deploy them to get maximum return from those resources (according to some definition of that concept, which in itself may be open to debate). Is it better to deploy them to make Sunset daily? Or would it be better to deploy them to make say Cardinal daily? Or perhaps add cars to the CZ and say SWC? I don;t have an answer handy since I don;t have the relevant determining facts and figures available to me. However, I can think of scenarios where it might make sens eot make the Sunset daily as opposed to say adding cars to CZ and SWC, and also vice versa.

I think, based on whatever facts GML is using he has come to the conclusion that deploying limited additional resources to make Sunset daily would not be as efficacious (by some measure) as deploying them elsewhere, while some others think the other way round. It is a legitimate disagreement which can be debated without calling each other names and making snide remarks if people would bring forth the specific facts that they are basing their positions on.

 

[GP35]

Another option, if Amtrak did refurbish old single deck coaches and bought a few from colorado rail, Amtrak could

give the capital limited the single deck coaches and Sunset takes the Capital limited superliners for daily service. Then

the Eagle coaches could go full trip daily.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak would be crazy to take their premier east coast train and downgrade it with the garbage CRC turns out to improve a train that is historically a financial black hole.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak would be crazy to take their premier east coast train and downgrade it with the garbage CRC turns out to improve a train that is historically a financial black hole.

Amtrak might want to make the Capitol it's premier train on the East coast, or at least one of the premier trains, but it is not currently Amtrak's premier train on the East Coast.

That honor falls to the Auto Train, which currently gets the best of everything.

Even after that, at present the Capitol tops only the lowly Cardinal for both ridership & revenue. Both Silver's, the Crescent, and the LSL bring in more riders and revenue than the Capitol. And lately, the LSL's OTP has even been better than the Capitol's.

All of that said though, I do agree that taking the Capitol to single level equipment is not a good idea.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Yeah, the Capitol is anything but the "premier" train. I rode it a couple of months ago. No different from any other Superliner train out there.

And what's with all the Sunset Limited hating as of late? Man, thank God the train has its share of supporters (like me and a few others) or else threads like this would be dull and hardly worth reading.

 

[GP35]

Amtrak would be crazy to take their premier east coast train and downgrade it with the garbage CRC turns out to improve a train that is historically a financial black hole.

There you go again hating on non-NEC trains. You know well that train is at a huge disadvantage with tri-weekly service, however just

like all those anti-passenger rail groups, you poop on it as if the problem is the route. You make anti-Amtrak groups and politicans proud everytime you attack another train.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

*wonders if you know what the NEC is*

*assumes a professorial voice*

The Northeast Corridor refers to several sections of track, primarily a 450 mile stretch between Washington DC and Boston. It also includes a 187 mile stretch between DC and Newport News, and a 62 mile stretch between New Haven Connecticut and Springfield, Mass. All but the 187 miles between DC and Newport are owned by either Amtrak or a commuter rail authority, and most of it is primarily passenger track. Some people would also include the 104 miles of the Keystone Service (also Amtrak owned and primarily passenger service), the 142 mile Empire Service corridor between Albany and New York City, the Downeaster's 116 mile route, and possibly even the remaining 319 miles of the Empire Service to Niagara Falls. Amtrak considers all of these its "Northeast Services".

The Capitol Limited, excluding the Washington Union Station itself, uses none of these tracks. It is not a Northeast Corridor train. The Cardinal currently runs the 226 miles between New York and Washington, but otherwise is not an NEC train. My earlier suggestion removes that section from the Cardinal, making it strictly Washington to Chicago. Naturally, by removing the NEC section of a train, I am favoring the NEC over the LD routes. I'm not sure how this works, but whatever.

If anything, I don't particularly like the NEC. I prefer longer, overnight trains. However, Amtrak is a company that depends on its serving profitable markets to justify its existence. Amtrak has limited resources, and it is simply sanity to allocate those resources to allow it to best serve its ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE. If more people utilize Eastcoast to Chicago trains than NOL to LAX trains, supporting the Eastcoast to Chicago trains makes the most sense.

I, under no circumstances, am not in favor of the idea of a daily Sunset Limited. If you manage to pull the required equipment out of thin air to run that train without affecting the potential of the rest of the system, please, do make it daily. Until then, it is the worst performing passenger train based on PER PASSENGER loss, and other trains make a lot more sense to upgrade than the one that bleeds red ink like a ruptured jugular.

 

[GP35]

*wonders if you know what the NEC is*
*assumes a professorial voice*

The Northeast Corridor refers to several sections of track, primarily a 450 mile stretch between Washington DC and Boston. It also includes a 187 mile stretch between DC and Newport News, and a 62 mile stretch between New Haven Connecticut and Springfield, Mass. All but the 187 miles between DC and Newport are owned by either Amtrak or a commuter rail authority, and most of it is primarily passenger track. Some people would also include the 104 miles of the Keystone Service (also Amtrak owned and primarily passenger service), the 142 mile Empire Service corridor between Albany and New York City, the Downeaster's 116 mile route, and possibly even the remaining 319 miles of the Empire Service to Niagara Falls. Amtrak considers all of these its "Northeast Services".

The Capitol Limited, excluding the Washington Union Station itself, uses none of these tracks. It is not a Northeast Corridor train. The Cardinal currently runs the 226 miles between New York and Washington, but otherwise is not an NEC train. My earlier suggestion removes that section from the Cardinal, making it strictly Washington to Chicago. Naturally, by removing the NEC section of a train, I am favoring the NEC over the LD routes. I'm not sure how this works, but whatever.

If anything, I don't particularly like the NEC. I prefer longer, overnight trains. However, Amtrak is a company that depends on its serving profitable markets to justify its existence. Amtrak has limited resources, and it is simply sanity to allocate those resources to allow it to best serve its ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE. If more people utilize Eastcoast to Chicago trains than NOL to LAX trains, supporting the Eastcoast to Chicago trains makes the most sense.

I, under no circumstances, am not in favor of the idea of a daily Sunset Limited. If you manage to pull the required equipment out of thin air to run that train without affecting the potential of the rest of the system, please, do make it daily. Until then, it is the worst performing passenger train based on PER PASSENGER loss, and other trains make a lot more sense to upgrade than the one that bleeds red ink like a ruptured jugular.

You sound just like the kill Amtrak LD train now advocates. Just a side note in your bias no understanding hate for the Sunset. The Texas Eaglewas equally as bad as the Sunset before it went daily.

You claim to like LD trains, but fail to have an understanding of how killing 1 LD train is one step closer to killing them all.

Also, no true Amtrak supporter would ever attack another train and call for its cancelation. I personally wonder what is your true motivation and what side are you really on.

 

[MrEd]

Amtrak should have one train with coast to coast service, not just Boston to Washington. Acela ridership was down in March 08 compared to 07, I would not call for it to be killed. I am not sure where that train runs, but I think its on the NEC. In addition to daily service for sunset, I would like to see it run to Florida, we just need to build one station in Alabama and then we will be all set.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I really have to ask you how dense you are!

Telegraph Format:

I. Do. Not. Want. The. Sunset. Dead. Stop.

I. Do. Not. Want. The. Sunset. Killed. Stop.

I. Do. Not. Want. Service. On. Any. Train. On. The. Amtrak. System. Reduced. One. Iota. From. What. It. Is. Today. Stop.

Amtrak. Does. Not. Have. Unlimited. Equipment. Stop.

There. Is. More. Equipment. Assigned. To. The. Sunset. Than. Needed. Stop.

The. Extra. Equipment. Would. Be. Better. Utilized. Elsewhere. Stop.

The. Required. Equipment. For. The. Current. Level. Of. Service. Should. Continue. On. The. Sunset. Stop.

Is this finally clear or are you going to try and misread, misquote, misconstrue, and misunderstand what I am saying yet again?

 

[GP35]

Amtrak has limited resources, and it is simply sanity to allocate those resources to allow it to best serve its ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE. If more people utilize Eastcoast to Chicago trains than NOL to LAX trains, supporting the Eastcoast to Chicago trains makes the most sense.

Since May 1971 Amtrak has been killing trains for the sake of bettering the remaining trains. Look at the current system, has it worked?

or has it made it easier for critics argue against Amtrak?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'd say your statement was false. Of the original system, there have been a few re-routings, but other than the National Limited and Floridian, that system is still served, and then some.

I don't agree with everything the managment has done, but let me ask you: did the Hilltopper make sense? I don't think so. It was a train to nowhere. Dropping it was a sensible thing to do.

Write your congressman, give Amtrak the resources they need to run the whole system to its full potential. Until then, they have to do the best they can, and the Sunset is not the best train for expansion given its numbers.

 

[GP35]

I'd say your statement was false. Of the original system, there have been a few re-routings, but other than the National Limited and Floridian, that system is still served, and then some.
I don't agree with everything the managment has done, but let me ask you: did the Hilltopper make sense? I don't think so. It was a train to nowhere. Dropping it was a sensible thing to do.

Write your congressman, give Amtrak the resources they need to run the whole system to its full potential. Until then, they have to do the best they can, and the Sunset is not the best train for expansion given its numbers.

Only because its tri-weekly. If it was daily with the same numbers, then you have a point. Let me repeat, a coast to coast Sunset would serve 3 of the 4 largest states. 4 of the 10 largest cities in nation. 14 MSA with 300,000 ppl or more. No other LD train has a population base that big. In my opinion, Sunset has the potential

to out perform the Empire Builder.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Thats not the big factor. the big factor is that in running coast to coast the Sunset requires 12 hours of padding to give it 30% on time performance! It also had one of the highest average lateness in minutes of any Amtrak run this year, and thats excluding the NOL-ORL section! If your train runs that late, its not a viable run. Its simply a bad run, with boring scenery (a lot of LD EB traffic are people riding it for scenery, keep in mind) and awful OTP. Ridership would improve if it went daily, but its too expensive a run for it to make money on that increase.