Sunset must go daily

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I didn't say it in my initial post because I figured that on this board, in the presence of people who know Amtrak, the NEC, the Cardinal's history as a Superliner train, and the concept of train car gauge, would know what I meant. Unfortunately, I overestimated one of those people. *shrug*
yeah right, Sure you did. Just like news analysis people needs to tell us what the canidates really meant to say.

Getting back on subject. A bus would be better than nothing. It could link Florida to NOL station without going to WAS. This could be

used until regular train service is restored.

Amtrak also have 27 hurricane evacuation train coaches in NOL. Why couldn't these coaches be used to make a daily Sunset.

The coaches could always be returned in case of a hurricane.
 
Personally, I would NOT want to take a bus from NOL to ORL. If they did run a bus, it would only have to go JAX-NOL anyway, with Silver Service trains connecting in both directions at JAX. And frankly it would be a much shorter connection to just run ATL-JAX or ATL-SAV by bus, and the Crescent would complete the connection to/from NOL. But that would still leave the Florida Panhandle, AL, and MS stations high and dry, as they have been since Sunset was "temporarily" truncated at NOL.

The "evacuation coaches" in NOL, as far as I understand it, do not meet FRA Regs, and were only allowed to be taken to NOL by FRA waiver to be used in an emergency evacuation situation, where there would be a genuine danger of loss of life if they were not available. They could not, without serious repair, maintenance, upgrade, whatever, be put into regular revenue service, much as I would like to see them be able to do it.

What we need is a NOL-JAX train, at the very least. Daily.

And the purchase of a LOT of new rolling stock, before Amtrak runs out of the WD-40 and duct tape that they currently use to keep a lot of the current rolling stock in operational condition.
 
Well, I've decided to start a grass roots movement...SAVE THE SUNSET.

I personally feel that without a Florida extension or connection....or the improbable daily service NOL-LAX....the train will slowly meander into oblivion.

check out: myspace.com/trains1and2

All campaigns have to start small. I have big plans for this...already working on designs for a "real" website as well as for merchandise. We'll see where it leads me.
 
Superliners can not - even if they tried - operate on the NEC!
I bet if you just wanted to operate a Superliner between Boston and New Haven, and either happened to pick stations with low platforms or were willing to go through a single level (or commuter bi-level) car on your way to a high platform, Superliners would work just fine.
Hmm, I'm not so sure of that. IIRC if they hung the catenary high enough in all places so as to clear the height of a Superliner. I also can't recall if I've ever seen double stacks on the corridor.

And boarding/detraining through one single level car at South Station, Back Bay, and Route 128 would be a nightmare. It would also tie up the BBY and RTE platforms for longer than they'd like.
You suspicion is correct, even if the catenary were good, the tunnel in Baltimore would prohibit this.
While I'm fully aware that the tunnels in Baltimore would stop Amtrak from running a Superliner down there, I'm not real sure how they would have any effect on someone trying to run Superliners between Boston and New Haven, which is what Joel said in his post. :unsure:
 
Superliners can not - even if they tried - operate on the NEC!
I bet if you just wanted to operate a Superliner between Boston and New Haven, and either happened to pick stations with low platforms or were willing to go through a single level (or commuter bi-level) car on your way to a high platform, Superliners would work just fine.
Hmm, I'm not so sure of that. IIRC if they hung the catenary high enough in all places so as to clear the height of a Superliner. I also can't recall if I've ever seen double stacks on the corridor.

And boarding/detraining through one single level car at South Station, Back Bay, and Route 128 would be a nightmare. It would also tie up the BBY and RTE platforms for longer than they'd like.
You suspicion is correct, even if the catenary were good, the tunnel in Baltimore would prohibit this.
While I'm fully aware that the tunnels in Baltimore would stop Amtrak from running a Superliner down there, I'm not real sure how they would have any effect on someone trying to run Superliners between Boston and New Haven, which is what Joel said in his post. :unsure:
Ah, you got me there.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the catenary wasn't high enough everywhere - in my searching to try an refresh my memory, most of what I found was either "It doesn't matter because of the tunnel", or were in the context of a discussion about extending Auto Train on the NEC "Double stacks no, Superliner, probably not". Between my searching, and in the context of of the "superliners on the Cardinal" conversation here, I missed the relevant part of your quote.
 
Amtrak also have 27 hurricane evacuation train coaches in NOL. Why couldn't these coaches be used to make a daily Sunset.The coaches could always be returned in case of a hurricane.
Not anymore, these cars were removed from NOL in December of 2007.
http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-runaway.shtml
So what will Amtrak do with them? I say daily Cardinal or daily Sunset. Sunset is the whipping boy of every Amtrak hater. Daily service will

get the numbers up.
 
Amtrak also have 27 hurricane evacuation train coaches in NOL. Why couldn't these coaches be used to make a daily Sunset.The coaches could always be returned in case of a hurricane.
Not anymore, these cars were removed from NOL in December of 2007.
http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-runaway.shtml
So what will Amtrak do with them? I say daily Cardinal or daily Sunset. Sunset is the whipping boy of every Amtrak hater. Daily service will

get the numbers up.
All the cars were returned to the Bear shops in Delaware. Amtrak has started on a program to return those cars, as well as another 20 or so that never left Bear at all, to service.
 
Superliners can not - even if they tried - operate on the NEC!
I bet if you just wanted to operate a Superliner between Boston and New Haven, and either happened to pick stations with low platforms or were willing to go through a single level (or commuter bi-level) car on your way to a high platform, Superliners would work just fine.
Hmm, I'm not so sure of that. IIRC if they hung the catenary high enough in all places so as to clear the height of a Superliner. I also can't recall if I've ever seen double stacks on the corridor.

And boarding/detraining through one single level car at South Station, Back Bay, and Route 128 would be a nightmare. It would also tie up the BBY and RTE platforms for longer than they'd like.
You suspicion is correct, even if the catenary were good, the tunnel in Baltimore would prohibit this.
While I'm fully aware that the tunnels in Baltimore would stop Amtrak from running a Superliner down there, I'm not real sure how they would have any effect on someone trying to run Superliners between Boston and New Haven, which is what Joel said in his post. :unsure:
They couldn't run BOS-NHV due to the catenary issue.

Back many (7+) years ago, before they extended the catenary north to BOS, there was a re-dedication of the KIN station. On that day, they brought many locos and other cars including Superliners to KIN! :) But since there is catenary on both tracks, that is no longer possible! :(
 
All the cars were returned to the Bear shops in Delaware. Amtrak has started on a program to return those cars, as well as another 20 or so that never left Bear at all, to service.
According to what I have heard most of those cars are going into the Northeast Regional pool, in an attempt to provide some more capacity on the Regional service to collect some more much needed high revenue/mile revenues for the coffers. All regionals to be restored in general to 8 cars and additional cars to be added to select trains that are overcrowded as discovered through monitoring the reservation system. Doesn't seem like a bad idea.

BTW, they are all Amfleet I Coach cars that we are talking of here. They could be used in the Midwest Corridor service in addition to the NEC pool. It is unlikely they would be used on any LD train.
 
yeah right, Sure you did. Just like news analysis people needs to tell us what the canidates really meant to say.
Just keep telling yourself that, ok?

Amtrak also have 27 hurricane evacuation train coaches in NOL. Why couldn't these coaches be used to make a daily Sunset.The coaches could always be returned in case of a hurricane.
They could not, for the reason everyone else states. Also, the Sunset, running daily, would, in my opinion, lose even more money. In the event that Amtrak gets a ****load more equipment and can run all the other trains and routes to their full potential, then making the Sunset daily would be great. Until that time, concentrating on the less-loss-heavy routes, upgrading overall capacity, and improving service on routes that get decent ridership makes alot more sense.
 
yeah right, Sure you did. Just like news analysis people needs to tell us what the canidates really meant to say.
Just keep telling yourself that, ok?

Amtrak also have 27 hurricane evacuation train coaches in NOL. Why couldn't these coaches be used to make a daily Sunset.The coaches could always be returned in case of a hurricane.
They could not, for the reason everyone else states. Also, the Sunset, running daily, would, in my opinion, lose even more money. In the event that Amtrak gets a ****load more equipment and can run all the other trains and routes to their full potential, then making the Sunset daily would be great. Until that time, concentrating on the less-loss-heavy routes, upgrading overall capacity, and improving service on routes that get decent ridership makes alot more sense.
Daily Sunset plus east of NOL shoulod be Amtrak top priority. Sunset before Katrina served 3 of the 4 largest states. One of the fastest growing states, Arizona.

The nations 2nd, 4th, 5th(Mariposa/Phoenix), and 8th largest cities. 8 states, 16 senators. You may hate passenger trains outside of your area, but there is a lot of

political power along that route. Lose the Sunset, Amtrak loses.
 
What makes you say I hate passenger trains out of my area? I want to ride the whole system, man. I love trains. Were I not hooked up to someone, I'd get a job working OBS on LD Amtrak trains, and man, the Passriding that came with it would be almost enough compensation for me. I'd love riding the whole southern transcon route, and wish I had done so prior to Katrina.

HOWEVER. I also happen to be a financial realist, and doing the best both financially and ridershipwise is in the company's best interest. It isn't that I hate passenger trains outside of my area- I just don't concentrate on one of them. I think the system as a whole would be healthier with what I suggest, and therefore advocate it.
 
They couldn't run BOS-NHV due to the catenary issue.
Back many (7+) years ago, before they extended the catenary north to BOS, there was a re-dedication of the KIN station. On that day, they brought many locos and other cars including Superliners to KIN! :) But since there is catenary on both tracks, that is no longer possible! :(
I've ridden on bilevel coaches that happen to belong to the MBTA all the way from BOS to PVD. I was under the impression that the Superliners were not any taller than the MBTA coaches.

I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if somewhere south of that, there were one or more bridges carrying roads over the tracks that happened to be too low for bilevel cars; if that were the case, it would make very good sense to simply lower the catenary wires rather than rebuilding the bridges or lowering the tracks, until there's real demand for taller cars, or the bridges happen to be getting rebuilt for some other reason.
 
Daily Sunset plus east of NOL shoulod be Amtrak top priority. Sunset before Katrina served 3 of the 4 largest states. One of the fastest growing states, Arizona.The nations 2nd, 4th, 5th(Mariposa/Phoenix), and 8th largest cities. 8 states, 16 senators. You may hate passenger trains outside of your area, but there is a lot of

political power along that route. Lose the Sunset, Amtrak loses.
Not sure, but I think the sunset still stops in Arizona, maybe up to 4 stops each way.

Maybe it went to Phoenix before I started riding. Recently I tried to book a trip to Phoenix but found no connection possible from the sunset.

I looked up the 4 largest states, still no service to number 1 state.

Rank State km² miles²

1 Alaska 1,717,854 663,267

2 Texas 695,621 268,581

3 California 423,970 163,696

4 Montana 380,838 147,042
 
What makes you say I hate passenger trains out of my area? I want to ride the whole system, man. I love trains. Were I not hooked up to someone, I'd get a job working OBS on LD Amtrak trains, and man, the Passriding that came with it would be almost enough compensation for me. I'd love riding the whole southern transcon route, and wish I had done so prior to Katrina.
HOWEVER. I also happen to be a financial realist, and doing the best both financially and ridershipwise is in the company's best interest. It isn't that I hate passenger trains outside of my area- I just don't concentrate on one of them. I think the system as a whole would be healthier with what I suggest, and therefore advocate it.
What you advocate would kill Amtrak. Amtrak would have died years ago if not for the collective efforts of all pro-Amtrak politicans ACROSS the country.

Lose Amtrak outside the NEC, then no politican in states outside the will risk making an effort for all tax payers to pay for train service in the NEC. Amtrak

not serving my state, so its not important to me. We need Amtrak in more states and more cities for stronger political support. Sunset is the anti-Amtrak favorite target.

I say take it away from them.
 
Daily Sunset plus east of NOL shoulod be Amtrak top priority. Sunset before Katrina served 3 of the 4 largest states. One of the fastest growing states, Arizona.The nations 2nd, 4th, 5th(Mariposa/Phoenix), and 8th largest cities. 8 states, 16 senators. You may hate passenger trains outside of your area, but there is a lot of

political power along that route. Lose the Sunset, Amtrak loses.
Not sure, but I think the sunset still stops in Arizona, maybe up to 4 stops each way.

Maybe it went to Phoenix before I started riding. Recently I tried to book a trip to Phoenix but found no connection possible from the sunset.

I looked up the 4 largest states, still no service to number 1 state.

Rank State km² miles²

1 Alaska 1,717,854 663,267

2 Texas 695,621 268,581

3 California 423,970 163,696

4 Montana 380,838 147,042
Population, not land size.
 
Recently I tried to book a trip to Phoenix but found no connection possible from the sunset.
The System Timetable says Maricopa counts as Phoenix. Not sure how realistic that is.
In no way is it in the realm of reality unless you can con a family member or s.o. to take you, drop you off and pick you up( I've never even been brave enough to ask).

Ed
 
They couldn't run BOS-NHV due to the catenary issue.
Back many (7+) years ago, before they extended the catenary north to BOS, there was a re-dedication of the KIN station. On that day, they brought many locos and other cars including Superliners to KIN! :) But since there is catenary on both tracks, that is no longer possible! :(
I've ridden on bilevel coaches that happen to belong to the MBTA all the way from BOS to PVD. I was under the impression that the Superliners were not any taller than the MBTA coaches.

I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if somewhere south of that, there were one or more bridges carrying roads over the tracks that happened to be too low for bilevel cars; if that were the case, it would make very good sense to simply lower the catenary wires rather than rebuilding the bridges or lowering the tracks, until there's real demand for taller cars, or the bridges happen to be getting rebuilt for some other reason.
Wikipedia shows Superliners at 16' 2" tall, whereas this press release from Kawasaki says that the bi-levels are 15' 6" inches tall, so there is a little bit of a difference. Looking at the whole NEC, these are the same bi-levels operated by MARC that make the trip from WAS to Perryville, MD on a daily basis, so the 8" is enough to make a difference between go and no-go down here.
 
Jesus, I could have a more effective conversation with a brick wall.
That might be more productive and less offensive for the other members of the Board.

I am one of LD Amtrak's biggest advocates.
Then you should realize, vis-a-vis the Sunset, that what needs to happen is a very distinct change in U.P.'s operations, first, and, second, for all non-daily trains, including Sunset to be made daily. Do they have the equipment to do that? NO. But there have been numerous discussions on the board over the past several years, and, I believe, sufficient statistics showing that when you make a train non-daily, ridership, financial performance, AND OTP all suffer.

This ludicrous imitation of a discussion, however, is over.
For now, that is probably a very good idea. Effectively calling another participant in a discussion on this Board more obtuse than a brick wall does NOT meet the level of civility and good manners that is the standard on this board. We do NOT have to agree with each other, and you can privately think what you want about another person who posts here. However, when it comes to the public discourse on this Board, unless you can disagree without being disagreeable, i.e., name calling, please don't make the post. And while it is an issue aside from the name calling, I would have to also comment that blasphemy is just as offensive to a lot of people as profanity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wikipedia shows Superliners at 16' 2" tall, whereas this press release from Kawasaki says that the bi-levels are 15' 6" inches tall, so there is a little bit of a difference. Looking at the whole NEC, these are the same bi-levels operated by MARC that make the trip from WAS to Perryville, MD on a daily basis, so the 8" is enough to make a difference between go and no-go down here.
Actually, the Kawasaki supplied MARC bi-levels are subtly different from the MBTA ones, including the fact that they are half an inch taller at 15' 6.5" and are capable for operation at upto 135mph, though currently operate only at 125mph, unlike the MBTA ones which are limited to 88mph. Info on the MARC cars can be found here.
 
Wikipedia shows Superliners at 16' 2" tall, whereas this press release from Kawasaki says that the bi-levels are 15' 6" inches tall, so there is a little bit of a difference. Looking at the whole NEC, these are the same bi-levels operated by MARC that make the trip from WAS to Perryville, MD on a daily basis, so the 8" is enough to make a difference between go and no-go down here.
Actually, the Kawasaki supplied MARC bi-levels are subtly different from the MBTA ones, including the fact that they are half an inch taller at 15' 6.5" and are capable for operation at upto 135mph, though currently operate only at 125mph, unlike the MBTA ones which are limited to 88mph. Info on the MARC cars can be found here.
I did note those differences, "the same" was poor word choice on my part - I didn't think that the 1/2 inch difference was big enough to highlight for the purpose of our discussion. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wikipedia shows Superliners at 16' 2" tall, whereas this press release from Kawasaki says that the bi-levels are 15' 6" inches tall, so there is a little bit of a difference. Looking at the whole NEC, these are the same bi-levels operated by MARC that make the trip from WAS to Perryville, MD on a daily basis, so the 8" is enough to make a difference between go and no-go down here.
Actually, the Kawasaki supplied MARC bi-levels are subtly different from the MBTA ones, including the fact that they are half an inch taller at 15' 6.5" and are capable for operation at upto 135mph, though currently operate only at 125mph, unlike the MBTA ones which are limited to 88mph. Info on the MARC cars can be found here.
I did note those differences, "the same" was poor word choice on my part - I didn't think that the 1/2 inch difference was big enough to highlight for the purpose of our discussion. :)
Not to be a nitpicker, but when you're talking about 25,000 volts of electricity, a 1/2 inch can make a big difference between the juice staying in the wire or arcing into the car.
 
Bringing the discussion back to Sunset, does anyone know how many accident damaged Superliners are still around awaiting repair? I know that there is a bunch of accident damaged ones parked in Beech Grove, but I am not sure how many of them are repairable, and how many are just sitting there waiting to be scrapped after insurance and other legal issues are settled.

Are there enough to form an additional set (given that resources are made available to make the repairs needed)?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top