Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

[jis]

I find this fixation ion Cincinnati rather curious myself. :-/

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

So Cincinnati shouldn't matter that much?

And what about bribing (hyperbole) CSX to making the Cardinal go over the James River subdivision to the NS Valley line? From there, go to Riverton then turn east onto the B line to Manassas, then follow the regular path to NYP. All the track is operating, just the freight railroads might not like an extra 2 trains a day (or three days a week)

I think the James River subdivision is busy, but the NS valley line isn't, just have to check the sidings on there.

 

[jis]

You are welcome to your own conclusions

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I find this fixation ion Cincinnati rather curious myself. :-/

It is a post about improving schedules in Ohio.

The largest unique market to the Cardinal is Cincinnati (1,748,725 live within 25 miles) if you count the Hoosier State separately. The Cardinal is virtually useless end to end because Chicago and the NEC have the Capitol Limited and/or the Lake Shore Limited. Neither of those trains serve Philadelphia or other NEC cities between NYP and WAS but it quicker to transfer to either the CL or LSL to get to CHI than to take the Cardinal. So then the largest market(s) should be Cincinnati and Indianapolis (1,601,693 within 25 miles). But the Cardinal serves Indy really early in the morning and late at night while it serves Cincinnati during the graveyard shift. So if this train is supposed to be CIN/IND, shouldn't the train be scheduled most to accommodate them? And if this train is not supposed to be for CIN/IND, who is it for?

Who would want to go to HUN and spend the night, no, who would want to just go there period!

You could say the same for the entire state of West Virginia.

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.

I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.

So here is my proposal.

Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.

Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.

It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.

Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.

Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.

Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I agree. [that Cincinnati is important, from Philly's post]

By routing over the Manassas Gap (B-line), the NS Shenandoah Valley Line (Valley Line), and the CSX James River subdivision, then we could reschedule the Cardinal while mostly keeping the current route (sorry Staunton), the only problem being the freight railroads agreeing or not, but that's a problem almost every LD Amtrak train has. I also have to figure out how much time it takes to go on this route, probably longer (speculation).

 

[Seaboard92]

It would be longer. And you miss out on CVS. And that's a major market. So I wouldn't even bother with it. Plus the more operating railroads the more complex operation gets.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

This is the map of trains in Ohio,

Cincinnati OH - Columbus OH

Columbus OH - Cleveland OH

Columbus OH - Pittsburgh PA

Along with existing routes

Capitol Limited

Lake Shore Limited

Cardinal

Are there any tracks Cincinnati to Pittsburgh bypassing Columbus (preferably going through Dayton)?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.

I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.

So here is my proposal.

Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.

Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.

It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.

Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.

Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.

Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train

Your Cardinal/Hoosier States look to be the opposite of mine. I want the Cardinal to be on the new schedule and the Hoosier State on the current while you want the Cardinal on the current and a new Hoosier State. It would be better than what we have now but Indy/Cincy still have lousy schedules east (not to mention the PHL/NYP times aren't that great either - early morning departures and evening arrivals). I do realize Buckingham Branch is a pain in the butt when it comes to the Cardinal but if we could shift the Cardinal that would help Indy/Cincy way more. It also keeps the Hoosier State CHI-IND as a single set daily. If Iowa Pacific decides they don't want to go to a two set operation, would the Hoosier State even exist (IP was brought in to help Indiana)?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, SeaBoard92 says that there's less coal trains, so maybe they could do a daily train, or what I'm optimistic for, ok with a schedule change.

Or take the James River subdivision all the way down to Lynchburg VA, then spin the train around at a wye that I found (don't know if it's private or not, etc, track renovations will probably need to be made), stop at the Lynchburg Station, then go north on the NS thru Charlottesville VA to WAS and NYP. The connecting track from the CSX to the NS in Lynchburg seems a bit old in some sections, but it doesn't look abandoned.

On the last picture, the track going to the northeast is NS Piedmont, and the track going northwest is CSX James River.

The only problem is overcrowding on the CSX James River Line, which I read seems to be busy with coal trains, both full and empty.

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.

I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.

So here is my proposal.

Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.

Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.

It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.

Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.

Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.

Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train

Your Cardinal/Hoosier States look to be the opposite of mine. I want the Cardinal to be on the new schedule and the Hoosier State on the current while you want the Cardinal on the current and a new Hoosier State. It would be better than what we have now but Indy/Cincy still have lousy schedules east. I do realize Buckingham Branch is a pain in the butt when it comes to the Cardinal but if we could shift the Cardinal that would help Indy/Cincy way more. It also keeps the Hoosier State CHI-IND as a single set daily. If Iowa Pacific decides they don't want to go to a two set operation, would the Hoosier State even exist (IP was brought in to help Indiana)?

I know from discussions with Mr. Ellis in the media that he wants to add more trainsets on the Hoosier State if Indiana is willing to play ball. So it could be a good option. Ed has the cars. I feel a daily Cardinal on it's current schedule would double. Coal traffic is on the decline so that will help. I don't think the Buckingham Branch is the problem. I think it's everyone's old friend CSX

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.

I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.

So here is my proposal.

Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.

Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.

It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.

Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.

Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.

Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train

Your Cardinal/Hoosier States look to be the opposite of mine. I want the Cardinal to be on the new schedule and the Hoosier State on the current while you want the Cardinal on the current and a new Hoosier State. It would be better than what we have now but Indy/Cincy still have lousy schedules east. I do realize Buckingham Branch is a pain in the butt when it comes to the Cardinal but if we could shift the Cardinal that would help Indy/Cincy way more. It also keeps the Hoosier State CHI-IND as a single set daily. If Iowa Pacific decides they don't want to go to a two set operation, would the Hoosier State even exist (IP was brought in to help Indiana)?

I know from discussions with Mr. Ellis in the media that he wants to add more trainsets on the Hoosier State if Indiana is willing to play ball. So it could be a good option. Ed has the cars. I feel a daily Cardinal on it's current schedule would double. Coal traffic is on the decline so that will help. I don't think the Buckingham Branch is the problem. I think it's everyone's old friend CSX

Of course you have the phrase "if Indiana is willing to play ball".

Any word on whether Ed Ellis/Iowa Pacific has any interest on expanding to CIN or other cities beyond IND (Louisville/Nashville?)

So you feel CSX is more blocking a daily Cardinal than Buckingham Branch? Or are both of them blocking it? At least from the discussions in this thread the conditions of the tracks in both West Virginia and Virginia west of Charlottesville are poor.

 

[jis]

I am sure IP will do nothing that is not subsidized by Indiana or Ohio or someone else (including their own freight ops sometimes, but not a possibility on CSX tracks). As it is they barely break even with the Indiana subsidy or lose a bit of money. They cannot last too long without the subsidy.

On Saratoga and North Creek their passenger operation runs at a loss which is covered by their freight operation profits on the same line. Most of IP's passenger operations are Ed's labor of love, and not necessarily the best business decisions, and we are forever grateful for it.

So if we are waiting for Ed to rescue service to CIN without the participation of Indiana or Ohio, we'd be waiting for a long long time.

Whether Hoosier State will or will not exist without IP's participation is entirely upto InDOT. Hoosier State is their operation. They pay for it and decide who runs it on what schedule and how often, within the constraints of reality of course.

 

[Seaboard92]

So you feel CSX is more blocking a daily Cardinal than Buckingham Branch? Or are both of them blocking it? At least from the discussions in this thread the conditions of the tracks in both West Virginia and Virginia west of Charlottesville are poor.

I feel it is CSX more so. As we know they aren't what you would call pro passenger. And their Cincinnati terminal has tons of trains. But with the coal traffic drying up they might stop being the issue. For instance the once busy line from Richmond to Newport News. Is down to just Amtrak and a local freight. With one or two coal trains a week.

 

[andersone]

You might want to spend a night in Huntington,,, as opposed to sleeping in your car perhaps,,, and you can tell it is summer in West Virginia when the good couch is on the porch, more seriously I think the idea of ending the Cardinal in WAS makes sense,,, If daily, and a fix for the arrival times in Cincy, When I head west I just drive to GBB because I can be home in 6 hrs,, before the Card even leaves Chi and doesn't make a journey dependent on the Card 3x

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, if the Cardinal can be rescheduled on the current route without a problem, then here we go

WAS 745A

CLP 910A

CVS 1028A/1037A

CLF 1258P

HIN 251P

HUN 629P/636P

CIN 1016P

CIN 742A

HUN 1124A/1131A

HIN 249P

CLF 459P

CVS 625P/634P

CLP 850P

WAS 1034P

CIN - Cincinnati OH

HUN - Huntington WV

HIN - Hinton WV

CLF - Clifton Forge VA

CVS - Charlottesville VA

CLP - Culpeper VA

WAS - Washington DC

 

[jis]

I am not sure that a schedule into and out of Washington that virtually rules out any connecting traffic is something that would be acceptable just for the sake of CIN.

 

[neroden]

The Cardinal traffic flow contains a lot of "east end" traffic. Honestly I wouldn't mess with the east end schedule much, unless you can cut time out from it.

 

[Seaboard92]

Most of the major traffic is on the east end. Now if you can get the speeds improved. Which would take million it's doable.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

That's why I prefer turning the train at HUN. If so,

WAS 900A

CLP 1025A

CVS 1143A/1152A

CLF 213P

HIN 406P

HUN 744P

HUN 816A

HIN 1134A

CLF 144P

CVS 410P/419P

CLP 535P

WAS 719P

Delay the last MARC to Martinsburg WV to 7:45pm or 8:00pm?

If New York should be served,

NYP 715A

WAS 1130A

thru stops

HUN 1014P

HUN 746A

thru stops

WAS 649P

NYP 1028P

(Is 10:28pm really worse compared to 9:58pm for connections?)

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The Cardinal traffic flow contains a lot of "east end" traffic. Honestly I wouldn't mess with the east end schedule much, unless you can cut time out from it.

Most of the major traffic is on the east end. Now if you can get the speeds improved. Which would take million it's doable.

http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2014.pdf

New York had 13,651 passengers which is just a little more than CIN. Only 6,590 passengers on the Cardinal went through PHL. If you're in NYP/PHL/New Jersey, why would you use the Cardinal? The LSL and/or CL can get you to CHI much faster. That leaves CIN/IND where the train arrives/leaves at inconvenient times. Hardly anyone from NYP/PHL would care if the Cardinal didn't serve their cities. It's more for CIN/IND passengers coming to NYP/PHL and if the train leaves CIN/IND at bad times they won't want to come (and who would want to travel to CIN from the east if they arrive at 1:36am?

I am not sure that a schedule into and out of Washington that virtually rules out any connecting traffic is something that would be acceptable just for the sake of CIN.

How many trains can you transfer to out of WAS arriving at 6:19pm? Not the Crescent (6:30pm). Maybe the SM (7:25pm). But would anyone here count on Amtrak to make the connection to the SM? No way Amtrak would guarantee it. And right now the train gets into PHL/NYP late although not as late as Max suggests so the question is whether to arrive late in WAS or arrive late in NYP. Of course you could use my schedule and arrive in both NYP and WAS at reasonable times.

Well, if the Cardinal can be rescheduled on the current route without a problem, then here we go

WAS 745A

CLP 910A

CVS 1028A/1037A

CLF 1258P

HIN 251P

HUN 629P/636P

CIN 1016P

CIN 742A

HUN 1124A/1131A

HIN 249P

CLF 459P

CVS 625P/634P

CLP 850P

WAS 1034P

That does put both endpoints at reasonable times but it essentially means anyone traveling within the two cities basically has to give up an entire day traveling each way. If the train ran overnight between the two cities, it makes the trip more desirable. And there's hardly any significant traffic in between (Charlottesville but they have other trains to/from WAS and how many people from Charlottesville want to go to Cincinnati (or vice versa))?

To me the only worthwhile Cardinal schedule is leaving CIN before midnight going east and arriving in CIN from the east early in the morning. Anything else puts a major market in the dark ... literally.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Woah! But hey, CIN-NEC passengers can use the Ohio State Limited! (Buckeye State has been shot down already)

I modified it back to HUN-WAS. This was intended to be like the Palmetto, serving people in between, not a 'thru' train, but you could definitely stay the night in HUN and continue on your way to CIN and CHI.

If the Buckingham Branch can take schedule changes and daily service, then much more would be possible for a thru train Cardinal, like your overnight WV schedules, and such.

The OSL should be on your schedule you posted on page 2.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I modified it back to HUN-WAS. This was intended to be like the Palmetto, serving people in between,

Who's between HUN and WAS?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, WV is gone.

Alright, I'll do some research.

I will add up all the ridership numbers between ALX to HUN and ALX to SAV. I will multiply the ALX to HUN number by 7/3 (3 and 1/3), because the Cardinal runs ALX-HUN (3/7)ths of the week, so I should multiply it by 7/3 to get 1, an expected full week of ridership for every week. I hope that explanation was good enough.

I still expect ALX-SAV to be more.

ALX is Alexandria VA.

HUN 11186

CHW 10038

MNG 614

THN 563

PRC 3406

HIN 8897

ALD 586

WSS 5204

CLF 2432

STA 6823

CVS* 23336

CLP* 2516

MSS* 5136

ALX* 7314

245607 total after multiplying by 7/3

I hope I did this math right

SAV* 23886

YEM* 7458

CHS* 41074

KTR* 7335

FLO* 26002

DIL 9456

FAY* 26795

SSM* 6611

WLN* 26346

RMT* 13154

PTB* 5877

RVR* 45231

ALX* 17066

256291 total

Again, I hope I did the math right

Now, these results are slightly (or lots) inaccurate. The * means that I divided the station boarding/alighting data by the number of Palmettos or Cardinals (per week)/number of total trains at that station (per week). I believe I worded that correctly. This makes the results inaccurate, and gives a slight boost for the Cardinal (the traffic from CVS-ALX is mostly not the Cardinal), and a slight de-boost for the Palmetto (traffic SAV-ALX is a lot Palmetto), not the overnight trains, presumably (I'm guessing here).

Anyway, they're pretty close, but the Palmetto won, probably by a larger margin than what is shown here.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Seaboard92]

I think cutting it at HUN would be a really bad move. Yes it's a town. But it isn't a city and I believe that a train needs two decent sized end points. Let's just face it CIN can't get daytime service east without infrastructure improvements. And lots of them. And for the word you can transfer to the Crescent in CVS and the Meteor in ALX or CVS-RVR bus. So the current cardinal does have connections.