Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

[ParanoidAndroid]

What about San Luis Obispo CA? Multiple Surfliners originate/terminate there, and the population is about the same as Huntington WV. Both cities ("towns") have motels/hotels.

Can't terminate it in CVS.

So abandon CIN and leave the Cardinal as-is, or accept HUN, which you don't seem to like.

I think Philly will give up on the Cardinal now . . .

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I think Philly will give up on the Cardinal now . . .

You're (relatively) new here. I gave up on the Cardinal long ago after they canceled the Broadway Limited/Three Rivers route. Since I am from "Philly", it was the best route to get to CHI. To me, the only major markets served by the Cardinal are IND and CIN (CVS has other trains to NYP/WAS). So if you can't serve them at better hours, just get rid of it and bring back the BL.

I think we can all agree the Cardinal in its current form (3 days/week) is ineffective. Some people think the daily move is coming. But Amtrak had mentioned its desire to make the Cardinal daily back in 2010 (around September if I remember correctly). I'm sure Amtrak had thought of making the Cardinal daily long before that. It's been running 3x/week since I believe the 80's. In the meantime, at least one and probably many other routes are put behind the backburner (if they're in Amtrak's minds at all) just to run 2 sets of equipment 1147 miles and 29 hours 3x/week to serve barely over 100,000 passengers when they can run 3-4 sets on a daily route of similar length/time and double that easily. I believe someone else had said the phrase "daily or bust". I think in the next 2-3 years we should say daily or bust to the Cardinal. And even daily, hey CIN you can now board your train at 1:46am/3:17am seven days a week!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Right. Ohio State Limited.

CHI - CIN "Hoosier State"

and a

CIN - NYP "Ohio State Limited"

Cities along the Cardinal route are just not spaced correctly to serve all the cities at good times and turn the train, unless truncated to WAS, and a connecting train to NYP.

CIN 727P

CVS 710A/719A

WAS 1019A

WAS 700P

CVS 943P/952P

CIN 931A

All I have to do is wholeheartedly accept that the Cardinal is a lucky train to be alive, and it really doesn't work most of the time, much less make the BBRR happy, even with declining coal traffic. I have yet to research coal traffic, and I shall.

 

[jis]

Just for information ... in the 1965 C&O timetable Chicago - Cincinnati was served by a daily Pullman Chair Car train on the following schedule:

Chicago: 4:00pm
Indy: 8:40pm
Cincy: 11:05pm

Cincy: 8:20am
Indy: 10:25am
Chicago: 1:30pm

George Washington provided Washington - Cincinnati service leaving Washington around 4pm and arriving in Cincy at 7:35am.

In the reverse direction it left Cincy at 5:55pm, arriving Washington at 9:00am.

There was an additional train called the Sportsman connecting with the evening train from Chicago, leaving Cincy at 11:30pm arriving Washington at 4:35pm.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

So, overnight train CHI-CIN. Arrive CIN in the morning.

Should this train sit in CIN the whole day, or do the extra few hours, there and back to HUN? Is HUN useless, completely?

Overnight train back CIN-CHI.

OSL depart CIN in the midday, overnight thru NY to arrive NYP in the morning.

OSL depart NYP at night, overnight thru NY to CIN in midday.

If there are enough people NYP-CVS who do want a faster overnight train to CIN, then yes, run a overnight there.

Otherwise it would mean abandon the current route HUN-CVS. Which you could do, but I just . . . irrationally don't like.

It seems there is absolutely no reason to run a daytime train over CIN-CVS.

And WHY is HUN so bad? Maybe terminate it in Ashland KY? That place has a few motels. Who knows.

 

[neroden]

FWIW there's a substantial Cincy-(CVS, WAS, PHL, NYP) market. I also see no reason to run in the daytime from CIN-CVS, apart from the scenery, which is a bad reason.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Is there any other reason for a HUN to WAS day train?

 

[Palmetto]

My head is spinning after reading all this. Oh: are the good folks in Ohio--and the legislators there--on board to improve service? The 3C proposal got shot down in flames real quick, and I've got no reason to believe there's hope for any improved rail transit until the legislative climate changes. I hope this doesn't put too much water on this hot topic.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, assuming Ohio is cooperative, this discussion builds on that. Without that, this discussion is useless.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Oh, and imagine what would happen if Kasich was elected president. (based on what I've heard)

 

[Palmetto]

Mr. Kasich is quite anti-passenger rail. That's a big problem for improving rail schedules in Ohio, unfortunately. I think he's okay with freight rail, though.

 

[neroden]

Oh, Kasich is a complete nightmare. Openly hostile to passenger rail, among other things. (Also pretty much openly hostile to the right to vote.)

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

My head is spinning after reading all this. Oh: are the good folks in Ohio--and the legislators there--on board to improve service? The 3C proposal got shot down in flames real quick, and I've got no reason to believe there's hope for any improved rail transit until the legislative climate changes. I hope this doesn't put too much water on this hot topic.

Well AAO had suggested the 3-C as through cars onto the LSL as a way to get around Ohio funding and the 750 mile rule. They also mentioned S.1626 which sounds like local governments can chip in money. Is Cincinnati, Cleveland, Toledo, or any other municipality in Ohio willing to contribute to funding trains? I can't answer that.

More recently AAO suggested the daily Cardinal and extended Pennsylvanian via Michigan were cheaper alternatives and more realistic than the other more expensive options.

I think the Cardinal schedule shift is a way to have the train hit larger markets at better hours and improve service without drastically increasing costs. Unfortunately the schedule shift probably isn't practical if the schedule isn't daily because it would require two sets for the Hoosier State. If Amtrak is going to run the Cardinal daily they should run it on my schedule. That change doesn't depend on a new 3-C/OSL schedule and would improve service in CIN without breaking the bank.

Assuming no 3-C, you want service from CIN west to IND-CHI and east to the NEC. I think a single train is just too long but with the right schedule I can live with it. I'm not even sure two separate trains are realistic and a train from just from CIN to WAS (and/or NYP) would have limited ridership. So assume just one train going both ways from CIN and it takes the Cardinal route. We know the schedule now really sucks for CIN. You can't leave CIN heading west before midnight or IND is in the dark. You can't leave CIN heading east in the morning or IND is in the dark. You can't leave CIN in the evening or CHI is in the dark. So the only option eastbound would be leaving CIN at night. If I were in charge and Buckingham Branch refuses the Cardinal shift, I would scrap the whole thing east of CIN (or look for a better re-route which everyone is telling me isn't possible) and just run a day CHI-CIN train using the schedules Max suggested.

As for Huntington, how much traffic do you feel will ride a train between WAS and Huntington? Do you think it would be cost effective? I don't. If WV/VA are willing to pay for it, go ahead. If Amtrak wants to spend my tax money on it, I will complain. I complain now they're spending my tax money on the Cardinal.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, assuming the Buckingham accepts these schedule changes, your schedule would work best, ignoring west coast connections, which in the end, I don't expect make up a lot of the train (just guessing).

Is the IND to STL connection important to you?

Is Huntington in the LD Cardinal sense important to you (enough to depart CHI a couple hours earlier eastbound and a couple hours later westbound?)

If HUN isn't worth it, then depart CHI at 11:45.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Well, assuming the Buckingham accepts these schedule changes, your schedule would work best, ignoring west coast connections, which in the end, I don't expect make up a lot of the train (just guessing).

Is the IND to STL connection important to you?

Is Huntington in the LD Cardinal sense important to you (enough to depart CHI a couple hours earlier eastbound and a couple hours later westbound?)

If HUN isn't worth it, then depart CHI at 11:45.

I think the IND-STL connection would be worthwhile to make up for losing the Cardinal westbound connections in CHI. Of course that also depends on track conditions, usage agreements, equipment, etc. If we arrive in IND later from the east and leave IND heading east to accommodate HUN, we'd have a harder time getting to/from IND so I would be against it (only 860,447 passengers live within 50 miles of HUN according to NARP, http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf). If we have no chance for the IND-STL connection, I wouldn't be against your changes to accommodate Huntington. I would probably not want to move CVS northbound much earlier than 7am and the CHI departure too much earlier than that. If you propose 2:45pm-6:05pm next day west and 9:45am-1:58pm east I can live with that although CVS at 7:10/7:19am could be pushing it. Do you lose that many connections in CHI if you arrive at 6:05pm as opposed to 4:05pm and/or leave CHI at 9:45am as opposed to 11:45am? If you do, I'd probably want to keep the times I suggested.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

OK. How long do you think IND-STL will take? I think Amtrak did it in 5 hours. I estimated 7 hours.

TXE 7:19A/7:55A

STL 8:30A

IND 4:30P

Cardinal 5:59P

Cardinal 12:00N

IND 1:00P

STL 7:00P

TXE 7:21P/8:00P

It works out, but the trains can't be late, or the connection will fail.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

OK. How long do you think IND-STL will take? I think Amtrak did it in 5 hours. I estimated 7 hours.

TXE 7:19A/7:55A

STL 8:30A

IND 4:30P

Cardinal 5:59P

Cardinal 12:00N

IND 1:00P

STL 7:00P

TXE 7:21P/8:00P

It works out, but the trains can't be late, or the connection will fail.

Your guess on the IND-STL is as good as mine.

The train could leave STL earlier than 8:30am (8:00am?) Also, my Cardinal was scheduled to arrive in IND at 11:20am (depart for CHI at noon) so the cars could leave IND earlier (noon? 12:30pm?). That would give you a little more leeway between the trains.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, OK. I never trusted the Texas Eagle.

STL 815A

IND 415P

IND 1200N

STL 600P

 

[Seaboard92]

Why not ship it onto Kansas City and connect to the SWC. It adds more connections.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well . . .

Cardinal (proposed) 1115A/1200N

IND 1130A

STL 530P . . .

KCY 1110P

Southwest Chief 1011P/1045P

Southwest Chief 743A/815A

KCY 400A

STL 940A

IND 540P

Cardinal (proposed) 550P/559P

That's why, after the Cardinal is rescheduled.

Even with the tightest connections with the Cardinal at IND.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Or if on the current schedule

SWC 743A/815A

KCY 830A

STL 210P/230P

IND 1030P

Cardinal 1150P/1159P

Cardinal 515A/600A

IND 610A

STL 1210P/1230P

KCY 610P

SWC 1011P/1045P

Only westbound you have some time at KCY.

Shows how tight this is. Maybe shift the Card forward and the SWC back?

 

[jis]

I think any attempts to fiddle with the SWC schedule that does not take into account the possibility (possibly impossible) of routing it via Pueblo is a fool's errand. It just ain't gonna happen. Well then again possibly none of this will happen, so I may be whistling in the wind anyways.

BTW, 10:30 - 11:50 seems like plenty of time at IND considering in the opposite direction 5:15 - 6:10 is acceptable Maybe KCY departure can be pushed by 25 or so minutes and even departure from IND can be pushed by 30 mins or so perhaps, and some of it regained on the NEC with 125mph based schedule?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, I thought the Cardinal was going to be rescheduled.

Then it's impossible.

Or make the SWC layover 2 or 3 or 4 hours at KCY.

LAX 245P

ABQ 812A/840A

KCY 413A/745A

CHI 245P

KCY 500A

STL 1040A/1100A

IND 700P

IND 1230P

STL 630P/650P

KCY 1230A

CHI 315P

KCY 1011P/115A

ABQ 625P/715P

LAX 1045A

Cannot turn train to 245P departure

:lol: We need an extra train set or 2.

 

[jis]

As I said ... tinkering with SWC is a recipe for frustration. That includes the proposed tinkering by the Pueblo aficionados. They have a dream but not a practical solution unless they wish to pay for one more consist.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

How many hours would Pueblo add to the schedule? I don't think there would be a need for an extra consist just for that.