Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

[CCC1007]

Especially if you have the SWC dropped into commuter rush hour at LA, ABQ, or CHI. That's a deal breaker for all three commuter agencies.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, only ABQ would be changed to commuter times. Everything else is midday or the same as before.

 

[neroden]

OK, to get back to this, I've gotten lost. What were our "best" proposals so far for daily Cardinal scheduling, assuming a separate Hoosier State?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Ok, here are the schedules.

Proposal 1: Shift Cardinal schedule to overnight WV, make Buckingham Branch accept them, connection to St. Louis MO at Indianapolis IN to the Texas Eagle, make it daily if possible.

Read Down Read Up

50 Cardinal 51 Cardinal

CHI 11:45A 4:05P

IND 5:50P 12:00N

STL 8:30A 6:30P

IND 4:30P 12:30P

IND 5:59P 11:15A

CIN 9:17P/9:27P 7:31A/7:41A

HUN 1:09A/1:16A 3:44A/3:51A

CVS 9:10A/9:19A 7:43P/7:52P

WAS 12:19P 5:00P

NYP 3:58P 12:45P

Proposal 2: Truncate Cardinal to HUN or CIN, and allow connection to the proposed Ohio State Limited at CIN (CIN-CLE-BUF-NYP). IND-STL connection could be an extended Missouri River Runner, but that doesn't help past KCY. Truncating at HUN is bad for servicing trains, especially if it's late (a good possibility).

Read Down Read Up

50 Cardinal 51 Cardinal

CHI 11:45P 6:05A

IND 5:50A 2:00A

STL 10:00P 7:45A

IND 6:00A 1:45A

IND 6:59A 12:45A

CIN 10:17A/10:27A 9:01P/9:11P

(HUN 2:09P) (HUN 5:21P)

I think those are the only 2 useful, and somewhat realistic ones at the moment.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Don't forget Seaboard92's plan:

I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.
I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.
So here is my proposal.
Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.
Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.
It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.
Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.
Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.
Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train

Of course I like my plan the best. It gives CIN good times both eastbound and westbound while Seaboard92's would still require anyone from CIN to/from the east to arrive in the middle of the night (although westbound they could take the new extended Hoosier State).

If I had to do an extended Hoosier State from CIN-CHI and arrive/depart CHI in time for transfers to western trains, it would be either stick CIN in the graveyard shift or IND in the graveyard shift. I'm sure if Indiana DOT has any say, IND is not going to be stuck in the graveyard shift. Plus, CHI-IND right now is the more popular city pair on the Cardinal (a five hour trip as opposed to a nine hour trip). I'm not sure there is any precedent for a train arriving/leaving at the final destination in the graveyard shift so I'm not sure it would work for the train leaving CIN at 1:36am and arrive at 3:17am. That's why I prefer to keep the HS to IND-CIN now. Plus, I think it works better for Iowa Pacific to keep their equipment requirement to one set rather than expand to two. Maybe after CHI-IND works for a while, then maybe Iowa Pacific then would want to expand either to CIN and/or to a 2nd Hoosier State CHI-IND. If we do go CHI-IND-CIN, I'd use Max's 50 schedule but for 51 leave CIN at 12:11am and arrive in CHI at 9:05am (so IND can be 5:05am rather than 2:05am and the train arrives at a better time than 6:05am in CHI).

 

[Seaboard92]

The one part you missed Philly on my proposal was the OSL which leaves at a decent time for NY from CIN and CLE

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

How about the hour layover in CLE to wait for the LSL or proposed other train? Is it worth ruining LSL to western train connections for the sake of Ohio, or is that another train that isn't running yet? If it's one that's not running, then that's OK. A CHI-CLE in the day and empire corridor at night, train is good, just I want to leave the LSL alone.

On your schedule, and the current LSL schedule CHI-CLE:

CHI 1100A

CLE 720P

(CIN 100P)

(CLE 645P)

CLE 759P

NYP 757A

NYP 930P

CLE 917A

(CLE 1030A)

(CIN 415P)

CLE 945A

CHI 345P BARELY MISSES THE BALL!! (SWC departs at 3:15pm, CZ at 2:00pm, EB at 2:15pm, TXE at 1:45P)

OHHHHH!! INTERCEPTION!!!!! and . . . . . . TOUCHDOWN FOR THE COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, I think CIN and CLE already have decent times, only BUF is the graveyard shift, kind of. Maybe, do a "Lake Erie" train, day train through there. Maybe extend one of the Empire corridor trains?

NYP 840A

BUF 455P/459P

CLE 827P

CLE 750A

BUF 1046A/1051A

NYP 823P

Eh, who knows. This one's a dream.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The first "day train" through CLE/TOL should be my new Liberty Limited CHI-PGH-PHL-NYP via Michigan. That would give you the CHI-PHL train, the Michigan-NEC train, and daytime service for CLE/TOL.

Recapping, you have the CL and LSL as "transfer" trains and the LL and Cardinal as "Ohio" trains. All three of CLE, TOL, and CIN will have one train during day hours. NYP, PHL, and WAS will each have at least one daily to CHI. NYP will have two dailies, one that allows for transfers and one that doesn't but allows for a later departure from NYP and an earlier arrival in NYP. The LL also would allow same day transfers from CHI, CLE, and TOL to/from the Carolinian (tight slightly less than an hour connection going south but plenty of time returning) or Silver Star in addition to the Crescent and Silver Meteor.

Once the Liberty Limited starts and the Cardinal goes daily/shifts to better serve IND and CIN, then we can get the ball moving on a separate Ohio State Limited/ Music City Limited (Nashville-NYP via 3-C/Empire Route). You might want to start with through cars CIN-CLE hooking up with the Liberty Limited in CLE. Then maybe you could go with a separate train and extend it either north to the Empire Route and/or south to Louisville/Nashville. CIN-NYP via CLE/BUF would be longer than 750 miles so it would not require Ohio funding.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Do you want the CL with morning CLE westbound with transfers to CIN, or the Liberty Limited with that?

And wow this is confusing. You put several proposals down, and I don't know what you want now. For clarification (I know this might be annoying, but I want to confirm)

1. Liberty Limited CHI-TOL-DER-CLE-PGH-PHL-NYP.

2. Ohio State Limited NYP-ALB-BUF-CLE-CIN. Possibly extend to LVL-Bowling Green KY-Nashville TN.

3. What happened to the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited? Should we just leave them alone for NEC-CHI overnight passengers with connections to the western trains, or no?

Liberty Limited approximate schedule based on yours.

NYP 900P

PGH 600A/630A

CLE 930A/1000A

CHI 400P

Ohio State Limited

NYP 930P

BUF 600A

CLE 915A/1030A

CIN 415P

Extension

CIN 1000P

LVL 230A/245A

NSH 700A?

CIN 415P/430P

LVL 900P/915P

NSH 130A? I only have 1963 schedules, so I have absolutely NO IDEA of the track conditions. If they are still fast (I've heard rumors that CSX keeps it up) then maybe these could be a lot faster.

Extension 2

CIN 415P/430P

LVL 730P/745P

NSH 1100P but ya know, it's pretty hard to do. Everything is set up for a good day train, but a bad end-of-the-day extension.

And we shall not dive back into the mess of Kentucky and Tennessee trains.

 

[Palmetto]

Just a quick aside. Nobody has a proposal as to where the money is going to come from. Without that, this is fantasy. Fun, but fantasy.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Do you want the CL with morning CLE westbound with transfers to CIN, or the Liberty Limited with that?

I had proposed two scenarios but I think it's better to keep the CL as is and have the LL be the Ohio train. Otherwise, both "transfer" trains terminate in NYP while WAS would be stuck with both "Ohio" trains (if you consider the Cardinal a WAS train more than a NYP train since it arrives in WAS first).

3. What happened to the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited? Should we just leave them alone for NEC-CHI overnight passengers with connections to the western trains, or no?

For now, I would say keep the CL and LSL as is with maybe minor tweaks but they should remain the two biggest (and once the Cardinal schedule shifts the only two) trains connecting to/from the west.

I think Nate had proposed having the LSL leave earlier eastbound. The PRIIA's suggest a 6pm departure out of CHI for the LSL and a 7:30pm departure out of CHI for the CL. That would allow the train to arrive in PGH one hour later and cut the delay for those transferring to the eastbound Pennsylvanian (anyone coming west of CHI to PA would still have to use the CL/Pennsylvanian combo to avoid an overnight layover in CHI). The problem is you make it tougher/impossible to connect with the southbound Silver Star in WAS (3:05pm) although Amtrak published the northbound SM as the train from Florida to connect at DC. I have a feeling they're probably going to cut the CL/SS connection soon anyway (2 hr leeway in WAS) and most CL/Florida passengers (especially those who want diner car service) probably book the SM anyway for more leeway. The SM gets into ORL only about 3 hrs later and the arrival times in south Florida are for the most part less than an hour later. The LSL would then get into NYP and BOS earlier (NYP before rush hour) but would arrive in BUF before 6am (5:46am) although it would be not as bad as the CL now arrives in PGH (5:05am).

As for westbound, the CL arrives/leaves PGH and the LSL arrives/leaves BUF close to midnight. Maybe move both of them up one hour so the CL/LSL arrive in CHI at 7:45/8:45am. Or move the LSL up two hours so it arrives first (with weather delays more likely maybe it should be scheduled to get into CHI first). I don't believe Amtrak is guaranteeing 92/29 so leaving at 3:05pm rather than 4:05pm probably makes no difference.

Just a quick aside. Nobody has a proposal as to where the money is going to come from. Without that, this is fantasy. Fun, but fantasy.

Unless the PRIIA's are just Amtrak's way of getting the government off their backs, they want a daily Cardinal.They want the CL/Pennsylvanian through cars but AAO thinks having a separate train and routing through Michigan would be better. Once the Viewliner II's come in, they will certainly have enough cars for the daily Cardinal, Liberty Limited, and possibly the Ohio State Limited. It then goes to negotiating track usage (and in the case of the Cardinal, improving the tracks enough).

AAO suggests that just extending the Pennsylvanian to CHI via Michigan keeping the current schedule between NYP and PGH wouldn't be that expensive (after the capital cost it would have a lower estimated annual operating subsidy than the daily Cardinal would, $700K vs $2M). Of course, I am using what amounts to their TR and 3-C extensions which would connect to my new LL rather than the LSL as they proposed (a bad proposal IMHO because the train would arrive/depart CHI too tight for westbound connections). AAO wants to reroute between PGH and CLE via Youngstown and Ravenna/Kent but sticking with Alliance probably drops the capital cost.

http://allaboardohio.org/2015/12/04/feds-lend-ohio-hand-to-get-on-the-train-again/

http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf

I'll let Nate look over the financial details.

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm actually opposed to an extension of my Ohio State Limited at least for the first few years for what I think is a good reason.

The schedule I made for it (Philly can you dig it up for me please) calls for just two trainsets. Extending it down any further requires three or four. And it's better to have an initial train start off simple.

On the matter if who pays the dime it's over 750 miles so it could fall under national network. But I would say Ohio could potentially fund it (after Kasisch) and potentially New York State. Which would give them a night train NYP-BUF. For stations it could be a cross between states and towns. And I believe the population on the route is larger then most of the other routes. And two sets of equipment for daily operation isn't horrible.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'm actually opposed to an extension of my Ohio State Limited at least for the first few years for what I think is a good reason.

The schedule I made for it (Philly can you dig it up for me please) calls for just two trainsets. Extending it down any further requires three or four. And it's better to have an initial train start off simple.

On the matter if who pays the dime it's over 750 miles so it could fall under national network. But I would say Ohio could potentially fund it (after Kasisch) and potentially New York State. Which would give them a night train NYP-BUF. For stations it could be a cross between states and towns. And I believe the population on the route is larger then most of the other routes. And two sets of equipment for daily operation isn't horrible.

This was yours: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66222-ohio-state-limited-nyp-buf-cle-cin/

I proposed my own schedule that allowed for transfers to/from my Liberty Limited but that required three sets.

Your schedule has a 12:02pm arrival into CIN and a 3:43pm departure so that would require the train to be turned in under four hours. I'm not sure the 8:11am arrival into NYP is feasible. Maybe move the eastbound back an hour?

 

[Seaboard92]

That could be done. It's doable to arrive at that hour. Especially if you replace the Empire Service that runs in that slot with it. But I can see shoving it back. I think a short turn could work it would be tight. But the piedmont can do a very short turn but it also has a far shorter route.

 

[Seaboard92]

In my schedule I didn't factor in upgrades to speed. That's all based on today's timetable. So if amtrak were to return and CSX/nS demand track improvements then it would actually be a faster run.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, if it's delayed, you're screwed. How fast, physically, can Amtrak turn a train with cleaning etc? Probably only a few hours.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

OK, which schedule is accurate? Seaboard92's schedule or Philly's schedule?

 

[Seaboard92]

Mine is accurate for that route under today's conditions. For the NYP-CLE-CIN.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

OK. Will need 3 sets though. Can't turn an overnight train in 4 hours.

Silver Meteor can't turn at NYP from 11:00am to 3:15pm, 4 hrs and 15 mins.

 

[Seaboard92]

We could push the eastbound back two hours which helps it on both ends

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Ok, that gets it more time in Cincinnati. Almost 6 hours. If it needs more time, we can shift it to the limit even more.

NYP 817P

CLE 710A/720A

CIN 1152A

CIN 613P

CLE 1050P/1100P

NYP 1041A

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

To connect Ohio to Carolinian, Palmetto and Silver Star, send a connecting train down to the Cardinal at CIN. Done.

I don't want to shift Carolinian schedules, so a bus will be needed CVS to RVR which would connect to the Carolinian. Only 1 bus needed to connect both ways. Silver Star passengers can connect at WAS.

You could even connect to the Palmetto at RVR!

Cardinal 50 910A/919A
CVS 945A
RVR 1115A
Palmetto 89 1207P/1219P
Carolinian 79 1259P/108P

Carolinian 80 205P/212P
Palmetto 90 504P/514P
RVR 545P
CVS 715P
Cardinal 51 743P/752P

Northbound Carolinian passengers can transfer at WAS or ALX.

Carolinian ALX 402P
Carolinian WAS 429P

Proposed Cardinal WAS 500P
Proposed Cardinal WAS 519P
402P to 519P is hopefully enough time to connect at ALX.

Transferring at ALX to the Carolinian is not possible going east to south, unless some schedules are shifted.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I think we're finding that in some cases the more convenient a schedule the more train sets it requires and there often is a give and take between having a train more convenient times for fill in the blank city and/or allow connections to other trains and running trains the cheapest way possible (fewest number of train sets). The cheapest way to do a daily Cardinal is to run it in 3 sets but that leaves CIN in the dark. So do you do it cheaply or spend more for a "better" train?

As for the OSL, I had scheduled it to run close to my LL in what I call an "X formation" with the LL CHI-NYP and the OSL CIN-NYP with the trains joining in CLE. But using that schedule requires 3 sets while Seaboard92's requires only 2. I'm sure if you wanted to add more possible connections you might even need 4 sets. I don't think there is really a right or wrong answer there is just personal preferences.

I honestly feel that if we just use my LL with the through cars CIN-CLE we won't need an OSL and you only have to run a train CIN-CLE and Ohio residents will still be able to go to NYP (they will just go through PGH-PHL instead of BUF-ALB). But I wouldn't object to separate LL and OSL either. It would be nice if they did allow transfers between the two but if that costs much more the transfer wouldn't be necessary (anyone from CIN-CLE who wants to go to PHL or WAS can just transfer in NYP). Now CIN-PGH would be harder to do.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

For day-train service on the Empire Corridor route to Ohio, this might work. It's a REALLY long trip, but it's kinda like the Palmetto, more explained below.

NYP 607A

ALB 840A/855A

BUF 145P/150P

CLE 500P/530P

CIN 1002P

CIN 743A

CLE 1220P/1230P

BUF 340P/345P

ALB 918P/932P

NYP 1211A

Palmetto-style.

People from NYP and ALB would have the Liberty Limited. ALB passengers just hop on over to NYP to connect.

But intermediate stations (Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo etc) can use this train to get to Ohio, in daylight hours.

Same goes for the Palmetto. It departs and arrives in New York at bad hours (not horrible, but a bit inconvenient), as the Silver Star & Silver Meteor handle traffic overnight from the NEC corridor to Savannah and south. Intermediate stations use the Palmetto day train to get places.

How is this?

This style schedule also happened on the IC City of New Orleans, departing Chicago in the morning, Memphis TN around 6pm, and NOL at or after midnight. You can also see this in Arlo Guthrie's "City of New Orleans" song. It's running on the IC track in the morning, departing Kankakee IL going south to New Orleans.

He says "nighttime on the City of New Orleans" as the train arrives in Memphis around 6pm, then through Mississippi in the darkness (after sunset) to the sea (New Orleans).

Oh, and put better food selections in the Café Car! (if no diner) ^_^

Oh, and this is a 2 set train, so putting on one of those new Viewliner II Diners *might* be an option? :unsure: Amtrak never does that for day trains though.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Max, I don't know if you remember the time they extended the Pennsylvanian west to CHI, truncated east to PHL, and ran it on a "day" schedule. It left one endpoint around 6am and arrived at the other around midnight. It did give CLE and TOL good times for their trains but they departed/arrived in CHI and/or PHL at bad times (close to if not outside of 6am and midnight). The train failed miserably. I think it might have made the Three Rivers look bad as well and caused Amtrak to cancel it as well.

I am not in favor of long "day trains". The trains are probably more for intermediate distances. I would not be in favor of an 18 hour trip from 6am to midnight if I could avoid it. I'd want to sleep part of it off. In your schedule, anyone from Ohio going to NYP would arrive in Penn Station after midnight. Why would they want to? The Palmetto is a little shorter although the NYP times are 6:05am and 11:56pm which I would want no part of, especially if I could use the Silver Meteor. I'd actually rather leave from home in the graveyard shift than arrive in the graveyard shift away from home looking for a hotel or a cab in the middle of the night in an unfamiliar city. I'm not exactly sure why the Palmetto works. It does have the lowest ridership of any daily LD train (but since it has no sleeper service it costs the cheapest).

For a CIN-NYP train, I think you have to run at least part of it overnight. I don't think it should be an issue to run overnight between BUF-ALB. I don't think there's much interest from Ohio cities to/from Rochester and Syracuse (well maybe Syracuse students). The limits for a day train to me would be a window between 7am and 11pm. With that schedule, end to end traffic is undesirable and midpoint to end might be OK.