Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[NE933]

Everyone has claimed that the Viewliner Is can be upgraded to be 125-mph capable easily, and that they will be. I'd be interested to know what's involved in this -- just recertification? Or actual alterations?

Good question, which implies why they didn't build them that way to begin with, and/or why they are not starting with any alterations now so that they are ready to go.

 

[William]

Good points. I definitely agree. Now the question is: will the Cardinal be among the first to get the new equipment, or be last (as is par for the course). At the very least, it should start with getting baggage dorms,

An early announcment by Amtrak claimed that they would receive 2 of each type of Viewliner II for verification etc. before the main production was done. This may not be true any more. However, on the assumption that that was true, I tried to work out the most logical way to deploy 2 of each car for maximum benefit, and came up with this idea:
-- 2 bag-dorms to the Cardinal, replacing baggage cars and doubling revenue sleeper space (the only train which can benefit from only 2 bag-dorms)

-- 2 baggage cars to #66/67, allowing it to run at 125 mph (one of the few trains which can benefit from only 2 baggage cars; the others are the Cardinal and the Palmetto, and this one spends the largest percentage of its time on the NEC)

-- 2 sleeping cars either to #66/67, or to the Cardinal (the only two places where you could guarantee that the Viewliner IIs would be used on nearly every trip, since they can't be used interchangably with Viewliner Is as long as they have a different number of roomettes)

-- 2 dining cars to the Lake Shore Limited, joining #8400 for a consistent roster of 3 Viewliner dining cars (the only train where this could be done)

Of course, Amtrak may not be getting its cars in this order any more. If (for instance) all the dining cars are delivered before the first sleeping car, logical deployment would be very different.

#66/67 could do well to get the first sleeping cars. I don't think that the Cardinal is used enough to support another sleeping car in addition to a bag-dorm at this point, but I could be wrong on that point.

In terms of testing, it would be the most logical choice for the sleepers to go to the #66/67, so that Amtrak can make sure that everything performs properly at higher speeds.

I would also think it would be a good allocation since Amtrak could market the #66/67 sleepers to business travelers as a way to combine their hotel and transportation into one for certain types of trips.

Once the Cardinal gets real diners, they could move its current diner-lites to the 66/67.

 

[neroden]

#66/67 could do well to get the first sleeping cars. I don't think that the Cardinal is used enough to support another sleeping car in addition to a bag-dorm at this point, but I could be wrong on that point.

If they went on the Cardinal they would be replacing the existing sleeping cars (which could then go into the shop for the process of retrofitting).

My point was merely that the capacity differences between Viewliner I and Viewliner II mean that you can't mix them up willy-nilly the way Amtrak mixes up Superliner Is and Superliner IIs. If a given service runs with 3 trainsets (like the LSL), you have to add Viewliner IIs (or replace Viewliner Is with Viewliner IIs) 3 at a time to ensure consistent capacities.

The Cardinal is the only train with sleepers which runs with 2 trainsets. #66/67 also run with 2 trainsets. So if there are exactly 2 sleeping cars, they have to go on one of these.

If, on the other hand, sleeping cars are being delivered continuously, Amtrak could wait until it has a whole bunch of sleeping cars and re-equip a different train, one with more trainsets.

 

[jis]

Everyone has claimed that the Viewliner Is can be upgraded to be 125-mph capable easily, and that they will be. I'd be interested to know what's involved in this -- just recertification? Or actual alterations?

Good question, which implies why they didn't build them that way to begin with, and/or why they are not starting with any alterations now so that they are ready to go.

Because the Viewliner I upgrade program is currently not funded. As for what is involved I am not sure. I suspect it minimally requires recalibration of the trucks and certification of the modifications together with new maintenance schedules/procedure perhaps.
They did not build them that way because back then they were not spec'ed that way. As for why they were not spec'ed that way, because they knew that they would be running only on trains that would be restricted to 110mph anyway, and they were probably saving a bit of money. Remember that the VL I program was forever in serious financial and other jeopardy and almost did not happen at all.

In general higher speeds never quite come for free.

 

[Anderson]

The Cardinal would be the better choice for the two Viewliner II sleepers, with the freed-up Viewliner Is going to 66/67. The simple fact is that since it needs to run slower than your "average" Regional to have good times at WAS and BOS, 66/67 wouldn't particularly benefit from going faster...any saved time would simply get kicked into the hold at NYP. On the other hand, the Cardinal could use the extra time for timekeeping help.

It is possible that you could see 10-15 minutes dropped from some southbound timetables eventually (as well as possibly a few minutes on the LSL's route in New York), but that won't happen until Amtrak has a good handle on how the new equipment is really handling. What is most likely is that the NB timetables stay unchanged (the trains are discharge-only north of WAS) but we see trains beating the timetable. SB, you'll probably see a few minutes dropped between NYP and WAS to let the trains leave (rather than having to randomly hold at various platforms for the clock to run out)...but most of that will just show right back up in the pad at WAS.

 

[jis]

It is possible that you could see 10-15 minutes dropped from some southbound timetables eventually (as well as possibly a few minutes on the LSL's route in New York), but that won't happen until Amtrak has a good handle on how the new equipment is really handling.

My guess is that while it is possible, it mostly won't happen. The extra little time will be used simply to increase schedule reliability. The reason that LDs have the extra time is because they run with the lowest priority on the NEC, and without the schedule slop their schedule reliability would be much worse.

What is most likely is that the NB timetables stay unchanged (the trains are discharge-only north of WAS) but we see trains beating the timetable. SB, you'll probably see a few minutes dropped between NYP and WAS to let the trains leave (rather than having to randomly hold at various platforms for the clock to run out)...but most of that will just show right back up in the pad at WAS.

I agree with that. It will all get absorbed in the pad. Departure of southbounds from WAS will most likely not change by much, nor will departures from NYP. Actually at NYP the slot situation is bad enough and from thence all the way to Philly and beyond, for the Cardinal to stay exactly in the slot it is in.

 

[tricia]

FOAM-A-THON,

 

[Acela150]

Good points. I definitely agree. Now the question is: will the Cardinal be among the first to get the new equipment, or be last (as is par for the course). At the very least, it should start with getting baggage dorms,

An early announcment by Amtrak claimed that they would receive 2 of each type of Viewliner II for verification etc. before the main production was done. This may not be true any more. However, on the assumption that that was true, I tried to work out the most logical way to deploy 2 of each car for maximum benefit, and came up with this idea:
-- 2 bag-dorms to the Cardinal, replacing baggage cars and doubling revenue sleeper space (the only train which can benefit from only 2 bag-dorms)

-- 2 baggage cars to #66/67, allowing it to run at 125 mph (one of the few trains which can benefit from only 2 baggage cars; the others are the Cardinal and the Palmetto, and this one spends the largest percentage of its time on the NEC)

-- 2 sleeping cars either to #66/67, or to the Cardinal (the only two places where you could guarantee that the Viewliner IIs would be used on nearly every trip, since they can't be used interchangably with Viewliner Is as long as they have a different number of roomettes)

-- 2 dining cars to the Lake Shore Limited, joining #8400 for a consistent roster of 3 Viewliner dining cars (the only train where this could be done)

Of course, Amtrak may not be getting its cars in this order any more. If (for instance) all the dining cars are delivered before the first sleeping car, logical deployment would be very different.

I don't think that the Cardinal is used enough to support another sleeping car in addition to a bag-dorm at this point, but I could be wrong on that point.

The Cardinal doesn't have enough demand for a second sleeper?? That's a total load of bull. The Cardinal sleeper routinely sells out year round! Even on a tri-weekly schedule!!

 

[neroden]

It is possible that you could see 10-15 minutes dropped from some southbound timetables eventually (as well as possibly a few minutes on the LSL's route in New York), but that won't happen until Amtrak has a good handle on how the new equipment is really handling. What is most likely is that the NB timetables stay unchanged (the trains are discharge-only north of WAS) but we see trains beating the timetable. SB, you'll probably see a few minutes dropped between NYP and WAS to let the trains leave (rather than having to randomly hold at various platforms for the clock to run out)...but most of that will just show right back up in the pad at WAS.

By contrast, I would expect Amtrak to completely rearrange the schedules. If the southern trains can run at 125 mph, they can "slot in" better with the 125mph Regionals, which allows for a much more efficiently designed schedule. I would expect this to be done. (Though I must consider whether longer dwell times will continue to prevent them from "slotting" properly.)

Of course, this won't happen until they have fully deployed the Viewliner IIs, retrofitted the Viewliner Is, and done quite a bit of testing.

And I, like you, expect we'll see much larger padding at Washington DC, so that the effective time won't be any faster. Once the trains can be slotted in better with the Regionals, it would actually make sense to add padding *northbound* at DC (as well as southbound) in order to make it more likely for the northbound train to reliably "hit its slot" on the NEC even if it was delayed further south.

More reliable schedule times are valuable, though, even if the schedule isn't any faster.

 

[jis]

Try slotting the Cardinal out of NYP and all the way to Philly. Do take into consideration all the NJT revenue and X moves. It is not just upto Amtrak to redo the timetable. They are a minor part of the NEC operations in terms of total train movements involved, and they acknowledge it. Besides, if the NEC Commission does what it is supposed to, it will also likely result in greater voice for the other operators in the operations of the NEC. Afterall, when you pay substantially more you expect and tend to get substantially more in return. So this whole thing about alternative ways of funding the NEC really is a two edged sword.

The main advantage of 125 mph is that when an LD is running ahead of a Regional it will be able to stay out of its way and not slow it down. But that speed will have no effect on dwell times for baggage car work etc. at stations, which must be accounted for in the schedule. You cannot schedule an LD train to have a one or two minute stop like you can with corridor trains.

Incidentally, this is the same reason that Amtrak wants NJT to run their outer zone expresses with 125mph capability. They don't care as much about how wonderful NJT's schedules will become. They care that they would not trip up the Regionals and even Acelas to some extent while running on the center tracks to Midway.

 

[William]

I've been reading about the Pennsylvanian because I may take it to visit a friend and noticed a mention about adding a Viewliner to it that would act as a through car to Chicago via the Capitol Limited. According to what I read, Amtrak would start this as soon as the equipment and funding is available to do so. Once the new Viewliner sleepers are put into service, I wonder if this will be done.

Check out page six: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/CapLtdPIPsec210PRIIA9-30-10.ashx

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I've been reading about the Pennsylvanian . . . and noticed a mention about adding a Viewliner to it that would act as a through car to Chicago via the Capitol Limited. . . . Amtrak would start this as soon as the equipment and funding is available to do so. . . .

Check out page six: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/CapLtdPIPsec210PRIIA9-30-10.ashx

I checked out page seven: "Norfolk Southern concurrence for track changes and installation of a switch at Pittsburgh must be complete before through service can be implemented." As far as I know, nothing has been done to the physical route to allow the equipment interchange.

Get back to us in three or four years.

 

[William]

I've been reading about the Pennsylvanian . . . and noticed a mention about adding a Viewliner to it that would act as a through car to Chicago via the Capitol Limited. . . . Amtrak would start this as soon as the equipment and funding is available to do so. . . .

Check out page six: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/CapLtdPIPsec210PRIIA9-30-10.ashx

I checked out page seven: "Norfolk Southern concurrence for track changes and installation of a switch at Pittsburgh must be complete before through service can be implemented." As far as I know, nothing has been done to the physical route to allow the equipment interchange.

Get back to us in three or four years.

Good to know. I didn't think about that.

 

[neroden]

I read several years ago (from rumors and secondhand information) that Norfolk Southern had agreed to install the switch and so forth as soon as Amtrak paid them to do it, and that Amtrak was putting it off until later. Presumably because Amtrak didn't have the equipment yet, or because Amtrak hadn't straightened out crew arrangements, or because Amtrak hadn't arranged how to split revenue and costs with the state of Pennsylvania, or... well, there are a lot of other things which could cause delay.

 

[Acela150]

The new baggage car was testing last night in jersey. Passed it on 66.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[CoachSlumber]

I was on the Cap Limited westbound Sunday and at the front were several cars that looked like new baggage cars. Were these being tested? There also was a Heritage Sleeper. Was that for the "testers"? And a middle locomotive in different livery; I didn't notice what.

By the way, I nominate the Westbound Harpers Ferry stop for Most Dilapidated.

 

[jis]

From the description it sounds like it was the Amtrak Exhibition Train consist. So no, they were not being tested. They were just being ferried.

 

[Ryan]

A post on TO says that it was moved CHI-STL yesterday, so it makes sense that it went west on the Cap a few days ago.

 

[hastybob]

The new Viewliner bagg car is heading to Boston today. Will be interesting why it is going there.

 

[Ryan]

Testing?

 

[William]

The new Viewliner bagg car is heading to Boston today. Will be interesting why it is going there.

Maybe it's just trying to take a vacation in lovely Boston, MA. All of this stalking must be very exhausting for it. :giggle:

 

[battalion51]

The Shore Line is the section of the NEC that has the longest stretches of high speed track without having to slow for curves, so it makes sense to do some of the testing out there. It's possible they may also be trying to shake out some of the issues with the Sprinters and using this as a platform to test both at the same time.

 

[afigg]

Well, this is interesting. Amtrak has posted a news release on the testing of the Viewliner II baggage car that does not say when the diner, sleeper, and bag-dorm cars are expected to enter revenue service, only that the baggage cars will by the end of 2014. But the other 3 types are expected begin field testing "this summer".

Amtrak Long-Distance Equipment Order Advances to Key Milestone

WASHINGTON – The Amtrak program to modernize its long-distance train equipment has advanced to a key milestone as the first of four new passenger car types is in field testing.

“It is clear that Americans want a national system of intercity passenger rail and Amtrak is moving ahead to build new equipment to meet customer demand,” said Amtrak President and CEO Joe Boardman.

The first car type now in field testing is a baggage car and will be used on all 15 long-distance routes across the Amtrak national system. The updated design provides for improved reliability and maintenance, and better baggage loading/unloading procedures. Also, the new built-in luggage racks can secure unboxed bicycles to support the growing demand by passengers to bring their bikes onboard an expanding number of routes.

The field testing program has several elements, including compatibility tests to ensure the baggage car couples cleanly with, and can operate through a curve without interference with, numerous types of Amtrak cars and locomotives. In addition, there are tests for speed, stability, braking, noise, interaction of the wheel sets with the rail as well as actual baggage handling.

Field testing will continue through October with the baggage car traveling on the Northeast Corridor and on routes to Chicago, New Orleans and Miami. The expectation is that new baggage cars will begin entering revenue service by the end of 2014.

The baggage cars are part of a larger order for 130 single-level long-distance passenger cars, including diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars being built by CAF USA of Elmira, N.Y. All four car types will modernize the Amtrak fleet, improve reliability and maintenance, upgrade passenger amenities, travel at speeds up to 125 mph and replace units built as far back as the 1940s and 1950s. The diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars will be used on eastern long-distance routes with the first units of each expected to begin field testing this summer.

Long-distance trains form the backbone of the Amtrak national system, connect small towns to major cities, support local economic development, deliver passengers to state-supported corridor trains and conduct interstate trade and commerce. Their principal mission is connectivity, and it is an increasingly important one to communities that have been losing their bus and air connections at a steady pace over the last decade.

Since 1998, Amtrak long-distance ridership has grown by roughly 20 percent, without the introduction of any new services, frequencies, or equipment. In FY 2013, long-distance ridership reached its highest point in twenty years with 4.8 million passengers. In addition, long-distance trains are, on average, as full on the peak leg of their trips as are the premium Acela Express services on the Northeast Corridor.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Wow!

​So baggage cars to officially begin field testing by the end of June,

enter service by the end of December. Six months of field testing.

Then the first units of [diners, bag-dorms, and sleepers are]

expected to begin field testing this summer. That is, the end of

September. Allow six months for field testing. Or more? They

are more complicated than bag cars, they have modules, and

plumbing.

"The expectation is [baggage cars in] revenue service by

the end of 2014" is well put. Expectation is surely much more

accurate than previous assertions that service "will begin by".

But I sort of have my faith renewed by this expectation wording.

Maybe the other cars will enter service by April, 2015? Or at

least by this time next year?

(Thanks for catching this news. )

 

[Bob Dylan]

Isn't 6 months a rather long field testing period?,The new Locomotives seem to be getting tested

and readied for service quickly!