Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[afigg]

Wow!

​So baggage cars to officially begin field testing by the end of June,

enter service by the end of December. Six months of field testing.

Then the first units of [diners, bag-dorms, and sleepers are]

expected to begin field testing this summer. That is, the end of

September. Allow six months for field testing. Or more? They

are more complicated than bag cars, they have modules, and

plumbing.

Quoting the news release again: "Field testing will continue through October with the baggage car traveling on the Northeast Corridor and on routes to Chicago, New Orleans and Miami." If official field testing is starting in June, October is 4-5 months of field testing. Since this is the first unit to undergo testing, it has to be tested for frame, structural, truck, power, signal, maintenance aspects. The field testing for the other 3 types may not have to be as extensive or take as long.

My interpretation is. however, that it is likely to be early 2015 before any of the other 3 types start to enter revenue service. But this is testing. If problems or design issues are found, then there will be more delays.

 

[PerRock]

So what I understand is that the baggage car that is out is sort of testing two things: the overall design of the viewliner 2 fleet and the baggage car it's self. Hence the long time. It's also going to be tested on all the long distance routes. Once the other cars roll out the testing is just going to be more specific to that type of car. The ACS-64s only have to be tested on the NEC and then only a few trains.

 

[neroden]

I would really hope that the second car type would enter testing before September. I'm not really sure what car type is going to be second at this point, though. The dining cars are more urgent, but the sleeping cars are frankly simpler.

Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car. The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.

 

[William]

I would really hope that the second car type would enter testing before September. I'm not really sure what car type is going to be second at this point, though. The dining cars are more urgent, but the sleeping cars are frankly simpler.

Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car. The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.

I really hope that they've corrected the HVAC issues experienced by the VL1s in the VL2 design. I've never been on a Viewliner that has had a properly working system. It's either boiling hot, or completely frozen; there doesn't seem to be a middle setting haha.

 

[Anderson]

I would really hope that the second car type would enter testing before September. I'm not really sure what car type is going to be second at this point, though. The dining cars are more urgent, but the sleeping cars are frankly simpler.

Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car. The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.

I really hope that they've corrected the HVAC issues experienced by the VL1s in the VL2 design. I've never been on a Viewliner that has had a properly working system. It's either boiling hot, or completely frozen; there doesn't seem to be a middle setting haha.

I've been on trains that managed to be both in the same trip...usually when the weather is hot in FL and cold up north. Does that count as a middle setting?

 

[Fan Railer]

Isn't 6 months a rather long field testing period?,The new Locomotives seem to be getting tested

and readied for service quickly!

You have to remember that the Sprinters were released to amtak june of last year (13) and 600 only entered service in February (14). The initial testing period is always longer. Subsequent units / cars can enter service much faster after the initial testing phase is complete.

 

[R30A]

I have found a number of bipolar Viewliner HVACs, where one end is boiling, the other is frozen. Thankfully I was in the middle towards the frozen end.

 

[hastybob]

Railway Age today has an article on the testing.

http://cl.publicaster.com/ClickThru.aspx?pubids=0895%7c13324%7c13425%7c68536&digest=XHJ%2fKwnqewM5gxx%2fPNULcg&sysid=1

 

[neroden]

Isn't 6 months a rather long field testing period?,The new Locomotives seem to be getting tested

and readied for service quickly!

You have to remember that the Sprinters were released to amtak june of last year (13) and 600 only entered service in February (14). The initial testing period is always longer. Subsequent units / cars can enter service much faster after the initial testing phase is complete.

There should, however, be a lot less testing for unpowered carriages than for locomotives. So hopefully much less than 9 months from first testing to entering service.

 

[neroden]

Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car.

...though I just remembered that the suspensions are different on the baggage car (heavy springs on both bogies), bag-dorm (heavy springs on one bogie, lighter springs on other bogie), and diners/sleepers (lighter springs on both bogies), so it is possible that they will have to retest a bunch of this. :-(

 

[Dutchrailnut]

The springs should be same, the secondary springs go by car weight the air bags adjust for weight and height.

This is first baggage car with air suspension, so some of testing is for failed air bags, shifted load, wrong loaded, overload etc etc

 

[NE933]

Is the prolonged time-frame of testing due to suspicions that were made from CAF's delays and the reported problems with assembling the stainless steel?

 

[neroden]

The springs should be same, the secondary springs go by car weight the air bags adjust for weight and height.

This is first baggage car with air suspension, so some of testing is for failed air bags, shifted load, wrong loaded, overload etc etc

I read something specific a year or two back (do not have the citation) claiming specifically that the bogies would be different on the baggage ends of the Viewliner IIs and that the "heavier duty" bogies would be painted differently in order to make this clear to maintenance. Maybe the source was wrong.

 

[jis]

Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Ryan]

I recall reading the same thing, but dang if I remember where.

 

[Miles]

Is the viewliner 2 being used right now between New Orleans and Chicago, can I take my bike unboxed right now?

 

[NE933]

If the baggage springs are different, that means I'll have to sneak in to ride it, to see how it feels..

 

[jis]

It won't feel good unless you are baggage :lol:

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[PRR 60]

Is the viewliner 2 being used right now between New Orleans and Chicago, can I take my bike unboxed right now?

No. It is still being tested.

 

[William]

Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.

 

[neroden]

Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.

I can describe what I know.

- When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.

- When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.

- Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.

- Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".

- Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.

So, before you see any trains cancelled due to lack of Superliners, you'll see trains running short a sleeper or short a lounge. I've never seen this happen with the Superliners; there appear to be enough to make sure that every train has a full consist even if there are unexpected failures. (And apparently there are enough extra Sightseer Lounges to replace PPCs in a pinch.) And we *have* had some major wrecks of Superliners recently (Nevada, for example).

This shows that the really tight rolling stock situation is specifically with the Heritage equipment, and to a lesser extent the Viewliners and Amfleets. There will be enough Superliners for the current services for a while yet. It would be more valuable to exercise options on the CAF order and get more Viewliners.

----

However, there have also been shortages of P42s; the Texas Eagle, which should have two, is routinely sent out with one, and it's pretty common for other trains to be short an engine. The P40 rehabs don't seem to have been sufficient to alleviate the shortages. F59PHIs have been pressed into long-distance service on occasion.

For the western long-distance trains, the motive power situation is probably more urgent than the rolling stock situation. Diesel locomotives have a shorter lifespan than rolling stock in any case.

Amtrak expects its diesels to have a commercial life (when you *should* replace them for maximum profit) of 20 years. 30 years is the standard depreciation period or "useful life" for diesels, and they really don't last much longer than 30 years if they're heavily used. Some other organizations consider diesels to only have a useful life of 20 years, and try to replace them after 10 years! Theoretically they could be gutted and repowered (like the AEM electrics were), but most of the cost is in the parts which have to be replaced, and you generally want to redesign the entire layout if you're replacing the engine. Companies which advertise rebuilding of engines only promise to extend the lifespan to 50 years...

The first P42s are going to be 30 years old in 2016; the P32AC-DMs will turn 30 in 2015; the P40s turned 30 in 2013; the P32s in 2011. The F59PHIs are only a little bit newer and will turn 30 in 2018. Amtrak's diesel locomotives are going to be dying soon, and the situation is rather urgent.

The multistate order for new locomotives is supposed to start delivering in 2016, but it's for a fairly small number of locomotives. Amtrak has a large number of options on this order and hopefully Amtrak will be able to exercise them.

(By contrast, Amtrak considers passenger cars to have a commercial life of 30 years and a useful life of 40 years, but it's quite straightforward to keep them going substantially longer than that, particularly if they get a mid-life refurbishment; the Heritage cars are only now falling apart after 60 years, and were doing pretty well at age 50.

Amtrak considers electric locomotives to have a commercial life of 25 years and a useful life of 30 years, but other organizations expect electric locomotives to last 40 years or more. Electrics are more durable.

Switchers have light duty cycles and low top speeds so they last much longer than road diesels. I'm not entirely sure of all the reasons, but fast, high-horsepower road diesel locomotives seem to have the shortest lifespan of anything on the tracks.)

 

[NE933]

Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.

Yes.

 

[PerRock]

I can describe what I know.

- When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.

- When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.

- Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.

- Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".

- Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.

In all my years following Amtrak's doings I've never heard of a PPC being replaced for a SSL. In fact I think currently Amtrak doesn't have enough PPCs for regular service on the SL, and if they do have enough for regular service, there are no spare. It is much more common to find a SSL replacing an PPC on the SL then a PPC elsewhere in the system.

I have heard of Diner Lites being used for regular Diners when needed.

The P40 rehabs got stonewalled recently, there are still quite a few sitting in BG waiting to be rehabbed. However the last I heard they are being gutted for parts for P42s rather then rehabbing. So the P42 situation isn't that dire.

The new Charger locomotives will replace almost all the corridor P42s in the Midwest and PNW, freeing up quite a few P42s for long distance routes & backups.

peter

 

[William]

Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.

I can describe what I know.

- When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.

- When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.

- Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.

- Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".

- Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.

So, before you see any trains cancelled due to lack of Superliners, you'll see trains running short a sleeper or short a lounge. I've never seen this happen with the Superliners; there appear to be enough to make sure that every train has a full consist even if there are unexpected failures. (And apparently there are enough extra Sightseer Lounges to replace PPCs in a pinch.) And we *have* had some major wrecks of Superliners recently (Nevada, for example).

This shows that the really tight rolling stock situation is specifically with the Heritage equipment, and to a lesser extent the Viewliners and Amfleets. There will be enough Superliners for the current services for a while yet. It would be more valuable to exercise options on the CAF order and get more Viewliners.

----

However, there have also been shortages of P42s; the Texas Eagle, which should have two, is routinely sent out with one, and it's pretty common for other trains to be short an engine. The P40 rehabs don't seem to have been sufficient to alleviate the shortages. F59PHIs have been pressed into long-distance service on occasion.

For the western long-distance trains, the motive power situation is probably more urgent than the rolling stock situation. Diesel locomotives have a shorter lifespan than rolling stock in any case.

Amtrak expects its diesels to have a commercial life (when you *should* replace them for maximum profit) of 20 years. 30 years is the standard depreciation period or "useful life" for diesels, and they really don't last much longer than 30 years if they're heavily used. Some other organizations consider diesels to only have a useful life of 20 years, and try to replace them after 10 years! Theoretically they could be gutted and repowered (like the AEM electrics were), but most of the cost is in the parts which have to be replaced, and you generally want to redesign the entire layout if you're replacing the engine. Companies which advertise rebuilding of engines only promise to extend the lifespan to 50 years...

The first P42s are going to be 30 years old in 2016; the P32AC-DMs will turn 30 in 2015; the P40s turned 30 in 2013; the P32s in 2011. The F59PHIs are only a little bit newer and will turn 30 in 2018. Amtrak's diesel locomotives are going to be dying soon, and the situation is rather urgent.

The multistate order for new locomotives is supposed to start delivering in 2016, but it's for a fairly small number of locomotives. Amtrak has a large number of options on this order and hopefully Amtrak will be able to exercise them.

(By contrast, Amtrak considers passenger cars to have a commercial life of 30 years and a useful life of 40 years, but it's quite straightforward to keep them going substantially longer than that, particularly if they get a mid-life refurbishment; the Heritage cars are only now falling apart after 60 years, and were doing pretty well at age 50.

Amtrak considers electric locomotives to have a commercial life of 25 years and a useful life of 30 years, but other organizations expect electric locomotives to last 40 years or more. Electrics are more durable.

Switchers have light duty cycles and low top speeds so they last much longer than road diesels. I'm not entirely sure of all the reasons, but fast, high-horsepower road diesel locomotives seem to have the shortest lifespan of anything on the tracks.)

Hopefully, if the Viewliner IIs pass testing without major problems, they can accelerate the production. They really seem to be behind schedule. (wasn't the order placed in 2010?)

I just hope that the delays don't come back to bite them. I wonder what the next steps will be after the current Viewliner II order is completed. If I remember correctly, the Amfleets are getting pretty old too. Would they order Viewliner II coaches, or a new design (anything but brand new versions of the current Amfleet design; I can't think of anyone who thinks that those cars are any fun to ride it)? I have a feeling though that the Amfleets are a pretty low priority, and will be used until they fall apart. Amtrak's next major project seems to be an Acela replacement.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I can describe what I know.

- When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.

- When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.

- Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.

- Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".

- Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.

In all my years following Amtrak's doings I've never heard of a PPC being replaced for a SSL. In fact I think currently Amtrak doesn't have enough PPCs for regular service on the SL, and if they do have enough for regular service, there are no spare. It is much more common to find a SSL replacing an PPC on the SL then a PPC elsewhere in the system.

peter

I think you misread his post. He was saying the the SSL was used in place of the PPC when needed.