Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[neroden]

I can describe what I know.

- When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.

- When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.

- Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.

- Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".

- Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.

In all my years following Amtrak's doings I've never heard of a PPC being replaced for a SSL.

You read my statement backwards: a bad-ordered PPC is taken off the train, and a second SSL is put on the train.

 

[neroden]

Hopefully, if the Viewliner IIs pass testing without major problems, they can accelerate the production. They really seem to be behind schedule. (wasn't the order placed in 2010?)

I just hope that the delays don't come back to bite them. I wonder what the next steps will be after the current Viewliner II order is completed. If I remember correctly, the Amfleets are getting pretty old too. Would they order Viewliner II coaches, or a new design (anything but brand new versions of the current Amfleet design; I can't think of anyone who thinks that those cars are any fun to ride it)? I have a feeling though that the Amfleets are a pretty low priority, and will be used until they fall apart. Amtrak's next major project seems to be an Acela replacement.

According to the last version of Amtrak's "Fleet Strategy Plan", which was issued in 2012:

- the top priority in rolling stock was the things currently on order: the new Viewliners (to replace Heritage cars, and because extra Viewliner sleeper space pays for itself)

- the next priority was the Acela IIs (because extra Acela space also pays for itself, and they'll be substantially longer than the existing Acelas). The existing Acelas will probably stay in service rather than being retired immediately.

- the next priority was Amfleet II replacement, because they have higher mileage than Amfleet Is, are the second-oldest, and there weren't enough of them to start with

- followed by Amfleet I replacement, because they are the oldest (after the Heritage cars)

In earlier versions of the fleet strategy plan, Amfleet I replacement came before Amfleet II replacement (because Amfleet Is are older).

Superliners are way back in the queue, there's no doubt about that; Amtrak clearly considers Amfleet replacement to be a much higher priority.

The Fleet Strategy plan listed priorities separately for rolling stock and for locomotives, so it's not clear whether "Amfleet II replacement" is a higher priority than "P42 replacement". I'd personally guess that P42 replacement is a higher priority, but it's just a guess.

Amtrak claimed it would issue a new fleet strategy plan yearly, but obviously they didn't.

 

[PerRock]

jeeze I'm sorry, I'll go get a degree in english language next time.

 

[neroden]

jeeze I'm sorry, I'll go get a degree in english language next time.

No worries, we all get mixed up sometimes.

 

[cirdan]

Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

What exactly is the purpose of having different springs? Doesn't that lead to an assymetric ride?

 

[JayPea]

The one time I rode the CS with a bad-ordered PPC, it was replaced by a CCC rather than a SSL.

 

[cirdan]

The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.

Neverthelsss, Murphy is often in the details and equipment can behave quite differently "out of car" than when set up and configured in the real setting. Thionk of transmission of vibrations, behavior of behind the scenes wiring and plumbing etc.

 

[neroden]

Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

What exactly is the purpose of having different springs? Doesn't that lead to an assymetric ride?

I think the idea is that baggage is heavier than people...

 

[cirdan]

Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

What exactly is the purpose of having different springs? Doesn't that lead to an assymetric ride?

I think the idea is that baggage is heavier than people...

Ok, got you, so it's just the baggage cars that have this, not all Viewliners.

 

[Ryan]

Yes. Perhaps the bag-dorms on the bag end of the car as well.

 

[jis]

Yes. Perhaps the bag-dorms on the bag end of the car as well.

Yes.
The heftier springs are colored red, so you can identify them immediately.

 

[Guest]

The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues.

The Viewliner I's had bathroom modules? I thought these were indeed a brand new design.

 

[R30A]

The Viewliner 2 restroom modules are very similar to the Superliner 1 refurbishment restroom modules

 

[Dutchrailnut]

for person stating the Genesis as almost 30 years old ??? not quite

all GE genesis were build 1992 till 2001 making oldest P40 only 21 years old.

 

[neroden]

I guess I was off by 10 years -- not subtracting properly!

:blush:

So Amtrak can probably function with the Genesis locos for about 10 more years before they start falling apart. That still means it would be really good to start getting new orders in about 5 years.

 

[battalion51]

Keep in mind though there is already a vendor and a model selected for the beginnings of the P-42 replacement project, Siemens with the Charger line of engines. Yes, I know there is some legal wrangling over this since EMD is claiming the bidding process was skewed by the folks in Illinois who vetted the bids on behalf of the consortium of states and Amtrak. Yes, I know nothing says that Amtrak will exercise the option for the additional 225 units that are present on the order. However, if the Chargers have a smooth startup like the Sprinters have had, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see those options be exercised.

 

[William W.]

I've seen concept images of the Charger locomotives. They are pretty cool looking. I wonder how much of an improvement they will be over the current GE Genesis locomotives.

 

[Amtrak172]

Hopefully, if the Viewliner IIs pass testing without major problems, they can accelerate the production. They really seem to be behind schedule. (wasn't the order placed in 2010?)

I just hope that the delays don't come back to bite them. I wonder what the next steps will be after the current Viewliner II order is completed. If I remember correctly, the Amfleets are getting pretty old too. Would they order Viewliner II coaches, or a new design (anything but brand new versions of the current Amfleet design; I can't think of anyone who thinks that those cars are any fun to ride it)? I have a feeling though that the Amfleets are a pretty low priority, and will be used until they fall apart. Amtrak's next major project seems to be an Acela replacement.

According to the last version of Amtrak's "Fleet Strategy Plan", which was issued in 2012:
- the top priority in rolling stock was the things currently on order: the new Viewliners (to replace Heritage cars, and because extra Viewliner sleeper space pays for itself)

- the next priority was the Acela IIs (because extra Acela space also pays for itself, and they'll be substantially longer than the existing Acelas). The existing Acelas will probably stay in service rather than being retired immediately.

- the next priority was Amfleet II replacement, because they have higher mileage than Amfleet Is, are the second-oldest, and there weren't enough of them to start with

- followed by Amfleet I replacement, because they are the oldest (after the Heritage cars)

In earlier versions of the fleet strategy plan, Amfleet I replacement came before Amfleet II replacement (because Amfleet Is are older).

Superliners are way back in the queue, there's no doubt about that; Amtrak clearly considers Amfleet replacement to be a much higher priority.

The Fleet Strategy plan listed priorities separately for rolling stock and for locomotives, so it's not clear whether "Amfleet II replacement" is a higher priority than "P42 replacement". I'd personally guess that P42 replacement is a higher priority, but it's just a guess.

Amtrak claimed it would issue a new fleet strategy plan yearly, but obviously they didn't.

I can't see why Amtrak would even want to replace the Superliner's, even though there may be many reasons. Is it more than likely that Amtrak will be replacing the Amfleet's?

Amtrak172

 

[Green Maned Lion]

They want to replace them so they don't run 30 years past the end of their planned useful life.

 

[cuppb001]

Not to take this off topic too much but in line with other poster's comments about motive power, the Genesis are nearing retirement age. The F40's which were arguably better locomotives (Not trying to start an EMD vs GE discussion) were retired after 20 years of service with Amtrak and some were less than that. Think of 406 (Built 1988) BNSF has stored and even sold some of its Dash-8s. NS has retired a few of their Dash 8s as well. It was argued that when Amtrak retired the F40s (some say prematurely) the comment was made that an Amtrak locomotive is worked harder than your average freight locomotive, travelling more distance and turned very quickly. Trains did an article on the life of a P42 recently which brought this up.

 

[neroden]

The Metroliner cab cars are now 46. The earliest Amfleet Is are 39. The latest Amfleet IIs are 31. The latest Superliner Is are 33. (Superliner IIs and Viewliners have quite a lot of life left in them.)

Back in the 1970s, Amtrak was running Hi-Levels built in 1956. Most of these were replaced by 1981 (age 25), with the last apart from the PPCs being phased out in 1994 (age 38).

When Amtrak first got its Heritage fleet in 1971, the oldest cars appear to have been built in 1946 -- 25 years old.

*Amtrak's fleet now is much older than the Heritage fleet which Amtrak inherited in 1971.* Well, at least there's no need to convert from steam heat to electric heat, but a lot of other elements are archaic and could be done a lot better now, from the lighting to the HVAC. The HVAC is completely obsolete on the Amfleets and Superliner Is at least.

The designs are also obsolete. The entire Metroliner/Amfleet profile was a horrible idea driven by desire to imitate airplanes, and wastes a lot of space. The Superliner I sleeper design has elements from another era, such as the "coat closet", which were eliminated already by the Superliner II.

And even though the Budd designs have proven to be very solid, they do wear out -- and these cars have been driven *hard*, under very intense service patterns, especially on the "long-distance" routes.

Rolling stock replacement is a pretty high priority. Amtrak has stated repeatedly that they would like to replace the Amfleets as soon as they can -- but given that there are over 600 of them, an expensive replacement project, it may be a while. But it would not be good to have a lot of 50-year-old Amfleets still running intensive services 10 years from now.

In 1970, US railroads were not, for the most part, running cars built in 1920. (In Britain, I have been told that BR was running some rolling stock that old in 1970 -- but this was due to repeated wars and austerity programs.) Amtrak does not want to be running Amfleet Is in 2025, or Superliner Is in 2031.

 

[Ziv]

neroden, as late as 1994 the UK/England was using carriages that must have dated back to the 40's. One coach that I traveled in actually had compartments that seated 6 in a 3 facing 3 pattern. The odd thing was that each compartment had two doors, one to the coach passageway and one that opened out onto the train station platform. They were very cool to ride in, I think they were really old business class because the seats were very comfortable and relatively plush.

On edit: The funky carriages were on the Waterloo to Exeter route if memory serves. I think it is the West England Main Line, but it seems like it had a different name in the late 80's and ealy 90's.

 

[William W.]

Not to take this off topic too much but in line with other poster's comments about motive power, the Genesis are nearing retirement age. The F40's which were arguably better locomotives (Not trying to start an EMD vs GE discussion) were retired after 20 years of service with Amtrak and some were less than that. Think of 406 (Built 1988) BNSF has stored and even sold some of its Dash-8s. NS has retired a few of their Dash 8s as well. It was argued that when Amtrak retired the F40s (some say prematurely) the comment was made that an Amtrak locomotive is worked harder than your average freight locomotive, travelling more distance and turned very quickly. Trains did an article on the life of a P42 recently which brought this up.

METRA still uses the F40 as its primary locomotive. I know that commuter rail isn't completely comparable to Amtrak, but how close were Amtrak's F40s to wearing out anyway? If they still had life in them, I wonder if they could have shifted them to short distance routes and used the P42s on LD routes. Only replacing the F40s as needed.

My general (perhaps inaccurate) impression is that Amtrak isn't very good at getting all the use that it can out of its equipment (maybe less so now, but definitely in the past).

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Metra runs their equipment a lot less, at lower speeds, with superior maintenance. I know people who extol the heck out of Toyotas Camry. They put 250k miles on it driving to and from work mostly on the highway. I know some taxi drivers who think they are utter garbage, unable to eke out 100k miles out of the things on the streets of NY as cabs, their engines, batteries, CV joints, shocks and even their basic body structure heavily compromised by use.

Contrarywise, highway commuters usually don't have much good to say about Ford Crown Victorias, the staple New York cab, practically only NY cab from 1996 until 2011.

Amtrak ran and undermaintained the F40 until it's fleet was beyond done. Strasbourg Railroad has some pre 1900 wooden stock. They have ran them for 50 years. What a waste that all those railroads ditched them. Strasbourg proves that wooden cars can still be on the road 120 years later. Why doesn't Amtrak have 120 year old rolling stock?

Give me a break.

 

[PRR 60]

Metra runs their equipment a lot less, at lower speeds, with superior maintenance. I know people who extol the heck out of Toyotas Camry. They put 250k miles on it driving to and from work mostly on the highway. I know some taxi drivers who think they are utter garbage, unable to eke out 100k miles out of the things on the streets of NY as cabs, their engines, batteries, CV joints, shocks and even their basic body structure heavily compromised by use.

Contrarywise, highway commuters usually don't have much good to say about Ford Crown Victorias, the staple New York cab, practically only NY cab from 1996 until 2011.

Amtrak ran and undermaintained the F40 until it's fleet was beyond done. Strasbourg Railroad has some pre 1900 wooden stock. They have ran them for 50 years. What a waste that all those railroads ditched them. Strasbourg proves that wooden cars can still be on the road 120 years later. Why doesn't Amtrak have 120 year old rolling stock?

Give me a break.

Strasburg Railroad