Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[ScottRu]

All I can report is what I was told (by a SCA, which may or may not be the blue ribbon of data verification). Ultimately it matters little - the cars did, or did not, pass their original testing. They no doubt will, in the end, come on line and improve the Amtrak fleet.

However, it will be great when new cars that actual passengers sit in are also upgraded.

 

[PaulM]

Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.

It's precisely stuff like this that I'm talking about. It causes angst amongst us and the wider audience out there. Some words about which tests or what kind of failures, their magnitude, and how far from a fix goes a long way in calming the seas of this hot spot in the subject of long distance rail travel that is clearly riding on the success of these cars and their brethren of sleepers and diners.

Why would you expect, after over 1600 posts, some actual information? I doubt the military can keep a military secret as well as Amtrak has kept secret the progress of the VL2 order.

What is sad is that the delays haven't generated any media attention. Sad, not because I want to see Amtrak embarrassed, but because it means there there is no interest among the general population. I don't expect VL2 delays to get the same attention as Boeing's dreamliner did, but still.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Let's face it. Baggage cars ain't exactly something that the general public will get excited about. Now if similar delays affect Amtrak's next Accela order, that would attract attention.

 

[pvd]

And when people talk about capital investment in rolling stock, it is sobering to think that 130 cars cost (roughly) what 2 Dreamliners cost.

 

[Guest]

Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.

In spite of cramming, the oral exam proved too difficult.

The good news is a retest is allowed. Hopefully, with a few crib sheets, a better result will occur next time.

:giggle:

As I have tried to outline for everyone....... it is not unusual for new equipment to have issues and fail test runs. Yes, they failed but it is not the end of the world. Modifications will be made eventualy the equipment will enter service.

 

[Guest]

Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.

It's precisely stuff like this that I'm talking about. It causes angst amongst us and the wider audience out there. Some words about which tests or what kind of failures, their magnitude, and how far from a fix goes a long way in calming the seas of this hot spot in the subject of long distance rail travel that is clearly riding on the success of these cars and their brethren of sleepers and diners.

Why would you expect, after over 1600 posts, some actual information? I doubt the military can keep a military secret as well as Amtrak has kept secret the progress of the VL2 order.

What is sad is that the delays haven't generated any media attention. Sad, not because I want to see Amtrak embarrassed, but because it means there there is no interest among the general population. I don't expect VL2 delays to get the same attention as Boeing's dreamliner did, but still.

Of course you are not going to get the actual information. It is confidential. It concerns not just Amtrak but CAF. Those who have it have to be circumspect. If someone posted the information it probably would be not be hard to figure out who it was who posted it. People who know want to keep their jobs. In any case as is clear from reading this thread even if it was posted most of the people reading this thread would not understand it.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Please no panic drills.

In the worst case rumor, if every baggage car released from the factory has to go back for mods … so what?

The factory will be cranking out another batch of cars with the modifications in place when they leave the door. Meanwhile, why not disperse the imperfect cars already on hand all thru the system for training? The alternative would be to delay the training as well, right, with the perfect becoming the enemy of the good enuff.

New baggage cars are being used to train crews. Still more baggage cars are being assembled. There's clear movement. Now it seems like the new cars will come into the fleet in big batches of 10 or 20 at a time. Most of us were probably expecting them to come at only about one train's worth at a time. So we wondered if the Lake Shore would come first or a Silver or what. Now it seems likely that two or three or four trains at a time could go from Heritage cars to Viewliner IIs. I don't see any problem with that.

It worried me much more when nothing at all came out the door for months on end.

 

[NTL1991]

There are some issues with the baggage cars as far as pinch points with the baggage racks and also an issue that pertains to clearances when using pallet jacks in the cars.

The pinch points shouldn't prevent the racks from being used, but would require careful training and new manuals to make sure everyone avoids getting dangerously pinched. (There are plenty of pinch points which must be carefully avoided in existing equipment.)
As for the pallet jacks... well, they might not work. Oh well.

Oh Well isnt a realistic answer for Amtrak. When you have dozens and dozens of Heavy Express stations that depend on the existing equipment they already have, Amtrak isn't going to just accept purchasing all new Baggage Handling Equipment in order to use these new baggage cars, if it turns out there are accessibility/clearance issues when using existing Pallet Jacks.

Oh Well would mean no more palletized shipments, which simply is not an answer.

 

[jis]

If the choice become no baggage cars vs. no palletized shipment, guess what the answer will be.

 

[PRR 60]

If the choice become no baggage cars vs. no palletized shipment, guess what the answer will be.

Assuming the issue with palletized shipment handling is accurate, the question would be how did this happen and who takes the hit for it. If you hire a contractor to produce a product, clearly identify what performance you want from the product, and the contractor does not fulfill one of the requirements, you don't simply shrug, send the contractor the check and walk away with a defective product. On the other hand, if you don't give the contractor the details needed, and you review and approve drawings that, upon inspection, reveal the future problem, then any changes needed to provide the lacking capability are the buyer's responsibility.

I know that things are always more complicated than they appear to the general public, but paraphrasing Alan Iverson, we're talking baggage cars. Not diners, not sleepers, not cars that need plumbing and seats and beds and kitchens and sophisticated HVAC. We're talking baggage cars. How could even Amtrak, renowned for loving to reinvent the wheel and, in the process, throwing all kinds of monkey wrenches into the works, screw up a baggage car order. It is both perplexing and amusing at the same time.

 

[Ryan]

How could even Amtrak, renowned for loving to reinvent the wheel and, in the process, throwing all kinds of monkey wrenches into the works, screw up a baggage car order.

I'm sure we could come up with a pretty long list.

 

[neroden]

Amtrak's profit on palletized express shipments is so low (it doesn't even show up in the annual accounting) that Amtrak would drop it without a second thought if necessary. Amtrak barely even advertises Amtrak Express. And even most stations which handle Express apparently don't handle pallets -- how many stations can even handle them?

My guess is that the inward-opening doors block the pathway for the pallet trucks. This isn't something which is fixable with a tweak. Oh well. So don't use the pallet trucks. Easy decision. Amtrak isn't in the freight business.

Anyway, whatever the modifications needed are, they obviously don't affect FRA certification to be roadworthy. And if they affect training, they must be related to modifying the luggage racks, because apparently all the other training is taking place right now. And if the mods are being done at Hialeah, they really can't be significant (if they were serious, they'd be going back to CAF). Maybe every luggage rack has to have one type of bolt replaced with another or something equally minor; this is less than had to be done on my new automobile and I wouldn't even blink about that.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I'm only going to wade into this mess. I'd like to reintroduce a quote I made a little while ago:

Station personnel will receive training since they help load/unload the car in the stations.. Whether you realize it or not, a lot of the baggage cars have loading plans. The luggage isn't just randomly thrown in the car.

Usually. ^_^

Besides, this car is not like a heritage. It has racks, shelves, areas for pallets/express plus a secure storage area. Once everyone is familiar with the amenities, feedback from the field will help establish a loading plan to minimize station dwell time.

I haven't heard an overall plan to familiarize engineers with the nuances of the bags but I suppose that can vary by division.

I think what we're seeing is mish mosh of information mixing with outdated information. There are those that said they failed "all of their" tests. I believe that is a throwback to when they were moved to Hialeah. There were issues, most of which have been corrected. If everyone recalls, when they started deploying the baggage cars, the two on the rear were undergoing testing for a recent modifications. Perhaps, things didn't work out as well as planned and that is why certain people are in chicken little mode.

As for clearance issues, that is what field testing is all about. That is why they were deployed. Information from the field and various depots will be used to develop a reasonable plan that may vary by route. There may not be a "one size fits all" solution. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

My advice to the people that quote sources: Your sources are in a bad spot. If they told you something, perhaps they told you in confidence. If you can't reveal the information in its entirety, perhaps it is best for everyone if you remain silent.

 

[PerRock]

I would presume the issue with Palletized shipments would be making the corner from the doorway into the central 'corridor' not being big enough; the only other thing I can think of is that it's an issue with the floor material.

But don't the shelves lift up? So wouldn't this be a non-issue? Can't fit the pallet jack around? lift of the shelf.

peter

 

[offroad437]

Just saw a new baggage car in Nol. It is in the maint area just north of the station.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Love Bill's Iverson paraphrase: Baggage Cars? Were talking' Baggage Cars, not Sleepers, Diners, Coaches or Bag/ Dorms!! We're talking' Baggage Cars man!!

As others have said, we don't want a repeat of the Acela roll out and recall and other famous and infamous Amtrak equipment fiascos!!.

We've waited a long time for the badly needed new equopment, and its better to have it right when it goes into service than to be DOA out in the Boonies somewhere, or have to recall everything!!

 

[neroden]

It sounds like there's now one at every conductor base east of the Mississippi, and maybe the engineer bases too, and some other stations as well. (I'm not sure about a couple, but it's certainly nearly all.) Here's hoping that "training" goes quickly. I'm leaving on Tuesday; maybe I'll see a Viewliner baggage car on my return trip on April 10th...

 

[offroad437]

Just saw a new baggage car in Nol. It is in the maint area just north of the station.

Passed by again and it was hooked up to the switcher getting backed in the Maint building. Maybe they training the repair crews here???

 

[Guest]

I would presume the issue with Palletized shipments would be making the corner from the doorway into the central 'corridor' not being big enough; the only other thing I can think of is that it's an issue with the floor material.

But don't the shelves lift up? So wouldn't this be a non-issue? Can't fit the pallet jack around? lift of the shelf.

peter

The shelves are going to remain down because they can only hold 250 lbs. So using them would be problematic.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

250 lbs

Can we say "Troll"

That would be 5 bags per self.

Oh that a good one.

 

[user 1215]

Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.

 

[jis]

When you have to diss something any old bull crap will do

 

[PerRock]

I would presume the issue with Palletized shipments would be making the corner from the doorway into the central 'corridor' not being big enough; the only other thing I can think of is that it's an issue with the floor material.

But don't the shelves lift up? So wouldn't this be a non-issue? Can't fit the pallet jack around? lift of the shelf.

peter

The shelves are going to remain down because they can only hold 250 lbs. So using them would be problematic.

Do you have any sort of proof, like do you work for Amtrak or CAF with the Baggage cars. If what you've been insisting on is true, you know a lot for someone who is just spreading rumours. It's feeling to me (& it looks like some of the rest of the community) that at this point you are hell-bent on trying to prove that these new cars have issues; yet everything we've seen from Amtrak seems to say the opposite.

So how do you know this stuff, or are you in fact just making it up?

peter

 

[StriderGDM]

Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.

You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.

I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.

If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.

So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.

But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.

Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.

So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.

 

[user 1215]

Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.

You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.
I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.

If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.

So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.

But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.

Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.

So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.

I agree. If nothing else, these new units are quite flexible in design. Now, can they handle palettes? I dunno. But they look pretty adaptable to me.