Wishlist for Superliner III's

[Bob Dylan]

Some of you that are Youngsters MAY live long enough to see Superliner III Cars but if I was a betting man I'd take the Under on this.

In a few years the Superliner I and IIs will be known as Heritage Cars since they'll be over 40 years old, and still have Miles and Miles to go before they Sleep.

 

[west point]

Lets look at the financials of single vs. bi-levels.

1. What is the cost per available seat for each kind ?

2. Same for sleepers although would need to factor in average load for each kind of accommodation, ( speculative Ex 1.63 passengers per roomette > ).

3. Diner Table and lounge seat costs.

4. Would single level train need two diners ?

5. car weight per passenger

6. Number of car HEP limits for single and bi.

 

[neroden]

Bilevels create substantial ADA-compliance issues. It's a lot easier with single-levels.

Jis is right that the overall worldwide trend in passenger trains is to low-floor single-levels (driven by the needs of wheelchair access in trams and streetcars initially), but high-floor single-levels are a close second place.

You get *slightly* more seats out of a bilevel, but not many, because you lose a lot of space to the stairs. You lose even more in a high-floor-boarding bilevel (which are really trilevel...)

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Has there ever been a commuter bi-level (similar to NJT or LIRR) with high level and low level doors? If such a car could be built in LD configuration that would be ideal. It could operate over the whole system yet be bi-level (or tri-level technically). It would also allow operation with current or future single level cars.

 

[A Voice]

You would still have vertical clearance issues in the Northeast; The bi-level design NJT utilizes is necessarily shorter than a Superliner and would not be suitable for long-distance service. Further, low-level passages between cars combined with entry points at both low and mid-level (and stairs between, with accessibility issues) would take up too much space. The cost paid in reduced capacity is just too great.

 

[Ryan]

The fascination with trying to solve all of these problems so that multilevel cars can be used everywhere never ceases to amaze me. The solution is simple, and is as old as the railroad itself. Just keep using single level cars that don't have these problems.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

What exactly do you mean by a proper diner?

You are aware that the new Viewliner sleepers don't have a toilet in them, no?

It's pretty talented to be able to make a triple post where very nearly every single statement is wrong.

How do shorter trains mean less staff?

one SCA can handle a Superliner Sleeper, but they staff one SCA to each Viewliner, even though the Superliners carry more people per car

Can you conceive of a world where an attendant works more then one car?

I disagree that the superliner concept is a waste, as these cars allow for much shorter trains, and thus fewer personnel and less physical plant requirements. High level platforms are not practical at every station, and many would need major changes to have it be possible to make one at that location. While a single fleet is a good idea, I just don't think we will ever be able to get back to one.

agreed, every platform west of Chicago would need to be replaced, and lengthened, which is not Viable in some places, so multiple stops would need to be made, Superliners also offer a better view of the rockies, where a LD amfleet cafe just doesn't cut it, it's dingy, dirty, dark, and not a nice place to be overall

Is every platform east of Chicago a high level platform? Of course not.

Is it written down somewhere that the single level lounge of the future has to be an Amfleet? Of course not. Use your imagination a little bit.

When I say a proper diner, as the heritage diners are being phased out, I believe the Viewliner Diners have not arrived yet, so they have to use diner-lites. I do admit that the CONO has a CCC, which apparently sucks, but for all other routes, there is a proper kitchen, Chef, and booth seating. There was a topic about one attendant staffing two Viewliners a little while back. I am aware that the new Viewliners will not ave toilets in the rooms, but the old ones will certainly not be retired, and I don't know if Amtrak will have the money to renovate them, and fit a proper bathroom. I know that Amfleets are not the future of single level lounge cars, but for right now, I don't like the lounge areas, coaches are alright, but they feel a little smaller and less well kept, where a coach seat on the upper level is quieter, bigger seats, and they are completely separated from (in my experience at least) much cleaner bathrooms.

 

[railiner]

Prior to the initial Superliner order, several trains west of Chicago were equipped with ex-Santa Fe Hi-Level cars. During this period, there were through sleepers from the East, so some of the trains were a mix of single- and double-level equipment.

Not several. Mostly exactly three - ex-Texas Chief - Lone Star and ex-El Capitan - Southwest Limited, and Sunset Limited. The transition cars were Hi-level Coaches with stairs at one end.
Where exactly do you see the trend worldwide towards bi-level long distance trains?

Regarding the transition cars--I didn't go down the stairs between cars. I seem to remember a single-level car before the Hi-Levels with a "fairing" or sloping roof at one end. Were these the diners?
In general, the world-wide trend for trains with sleepers is for them to be a thing of the past. But I think bi-level is the way of the future--Santa Fe saw this many years ago, and now intermodal freight and commuter passenger is increasingly bi-level.

The Hi-Level transition cars were all chair cars originally (Amtrak later modified them into coach-dorms)....they had the stairs at one end to transition access to single level cars.

The single level cars with the "fairing" at one end had no steps...the fairing was strictly cosmetic to make the transition appear streamlined....and these cars were all baggage cars....

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

They shall include diaphragm walkways on both decks of the car, and they should also include elevators in each car for wheelchair passengers.

 

[jis]

And a Jacuzzi too

 

[neroden]

Amtrak should be able to budget to retrofit the Viewliner Is. They have to order 50 bathroom modules, one for each car. This is not a huge expenditure. Then they have to cycle them through Beech Grove, pop out a roomette module, pop in a toilet module, screw the old toilets shut, and reconnect the plumbing. This is within the scope of a Level III overhaul for sure and probably of a Level II overhaul; it can be done incrementally.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

What exactly do you mean by a proper diner?

You are aware that the new Viewliner sleepers don't have a toilet in them, no?

It's pretty talented to be able to make a triple post where very nearly every single statement is wrong.

How do shorter trains mean less staff?

one SCA can handle a Superliner Sleeper, but they staff one SCA to each Viewliner, even though the Superliners carry more people per car

Can you conceive of a world where an attendant works more then one car?

I disagree that the superliner concept is a waste, as these cars allow for much shorter trains, and thus fewer personnel and less physical plant requirements. High level platforms are not practical at every station, and many would need major changes to have it be possible to make one at that location. While a single fleet is a good idea, I just don't think we will ever be able to get back to one.

agreed, every platform west of Chicago would need to be replaced, and lengthened, which is not Viable in some places, so multiple stops would need to be made, Superliners also offer a better view of the rockies, where a LD amfleet cafe just doesn't cut it, it's dingy, dirty, dark, and not a nice place to be overall

Is every platform east of Chicago a high level platform? Of course not.
Is it written down somewhere that the single level lounge of the future has to be an Amfleet? Of course not. Use your imagination a little bit.

When I say a proper diner, as the heritage diners are being phased out, I believe the Viewliner Diners have not arrived yet, so they have to use diner-lites. I do admit that the CONO has a CCC, which apparently sucks, but for all other routes, there is a proper kitchen, Chef, and booth seating. There was a topic about one attendant staffing two Viewliners a little while back. I am aware that the new Viewliners will not ave toilets in the rooms, but the old ones will certainly not be retired, and I don't know if Amtrak will have the money to renovate them, and fit a proper bathroom. I know that Amfleets are not the future of single level lounge cars, but for right now, I don't like the lounge areas, coaches are alright, but they feel a little smaller and less well kept, where a coach seat on the upper level is quieter, bigger seats, and they are completely separated from (in my experience at least) much cleaner bathrooms.

also, I wouldn't mind a single level train if it had domes. When I was on the Canadian, on Via rail, I spent most of my time in the dome, or park car lounge, and that was the best single train ride I've ever had

 

[CCC1007]

What exactly do you mean by a proper diner?

You are aware that the new Viewliner sleepers don't have a toilet in them, no?

It's pretty talented to be able to make a triple post where very nearly every single statement is wrong.

How do shorter trains mean less staff?

one SCA can handle a Superliner Sleeper, but they staff one SCA to each Viewliner, even though the Superliners carry more people per car

Can you conceive of a world where an attendant works more then one car?

I disagree that the superliner concept is a waste, as these cars allow for much shorter trains, and thus fewer personnel and less physical plant requirements. High level platforms are not practical at every station, and many would need major changes to have it be possible to make one at that location. While a single fleet is a good idea, I just don't think we will ever be able to get back to one.

agreed, every platform west of Chicago would need to be replaced, and lengthened, which is not Viable in some places, so multiple stops would need to be made, Superliners also offer a better view of the rockies, where a LD amfleet cafe just doesn't cut it, it's dingy, dirty, dark, and not a nice place to be overall

Is every platform east of Chicago a high level platform? Of course not.
Is it written down somewhere that the single level lounge of the future has to be an Amfleet? Of course not. Use your imagination a little bit.

When I say a proper diner, as the heritage diners are being phased out, I believe the Viewliner Diners have not arrived yet, so they have to use diner-lites. I do admit that the CONO has a CCC, which apparently sucks, but for all other routes, there is a proper kitchen, Chef, and booth seating. There was a topic about one attendant staffing two Viewliners a little while back. I am aware that the new Viewliners will not ave toilets in the rooms, but the old ones will certainly not be retired, and I don't know if Amtrak will have the money to renovate them, and fit a proper bathroom. I know that Amfleets are not the future of single level lounge cars, but for right now, I don't like the lounge areas, coaches are alright, but they feel a little smaller and less well kept, where a coach seat on the upper level is quieter, bigger seats, and they are completely separated from (in my experience at least) much cleaner bathrooms.

also, I wouldn't mind a single level train if it had domes. When I was on the Canadian, on Via rail, I spent most of my time in the dome, or park car lounge, and that was the best single train ride I've ever had

Due to clearance issues in NYP, and in Baltimore, the best you can hope for is something like the panorama cars that VIA adds between Edmonton and Vancouver.

 

[Palmetto]

And the Panorama cars serve the purpose for scenery viewing as far as non railfans are concerned. The classic domes are popular with railfans, allowing them to see ahead and watch the signals, AFAICT.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

I think they should replace the dining car with a buffet car. Have the car like a buffet restaurant where you can pick a variety of food.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I think they should replace the dining car with a buffet car. Have the car like a buffet restaurant where you can pick a variety of food.

The New York-Florida trains had buffet restaurants in the late 1980s as a cost saving feature. The double unit dining cars were used/ Passengers didn't care for this option and it probably drove more passengers away. Someone else may remember how long the buffets lasted, but not more than 2-3 years.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

They shall include diaphragm walkways on both decks of the car, and they should also include elevators in each car for wheelchair passengers.

You just insisted upon two expensive and inefficient solutions for the exact same problem. #YouShallReconsider

also, I wouldn't mind a single level train if it had domes. When I was on the Canadian, on Via rail, I spent most of my time in the dome, or park car lounge, and that was the best single train ride I've ever had

True domes are one of the unique benefits that only rail travel can provide. I'd certainly pay more to reserve a guaranteed seat in a true dome car if such an option existed. I'd imagine that up-selling reserved dome experiences to people willing to pay extra would have a better chance of covering operational costs than peddling overpriced pantry foods and second rate Pepsi drinks.

Due to clearance issues in NYP, and in Baltimore, the best you can hope for is something like the panorama cars that VIA adds between Edmonton and Vancouver.

1. Superliners don't need to worry about NYP or Baltimore.

2. Even if they did a dome could be removed and attached just as easily as any other car.

3. Hypothetically even dual levels could support a dome on routes that allow Plate H or K.

4. I wouldn't pay one red cent for the option to sit inside one of VIA's silly "panorama" cars.

5. If there's not enough of a benefit to charge a premium then what is the point of having it?

I think they should replace the dining car with a buffet car. Have the car like a buffet restaurant where you can pick a variety of food.

The word "buffet" can have many meanings. For instance, it could mean stale or gooey or overcooked or even fossilized. I've experienced buffet meals of all types from $10 USD to $200 SGD and every price between. None of them was worth the money.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

They shall include diaphragm walkways on both decks of the car, and they should also include elevators in each car for wheelchair passengers.

You just insisted upon two expensive and inefficient solutions for the exact same problem. #YouShallReconsider

also, I wouldn't mind a single level train if it had domes. When I was on the Canadian, on Via rail, I spent most of my time in the dome, or park car lounge, and that was the best single train ride I've ever had

True domes are one of the unique benefits that only rail travel can provide. I'd certainly pay more to reserve a guaranteed seat in a true dome car if such an option existed. I'd imagine that up-selling reserved dome experiences to people willing to pay extra would have a better chance of covering operational costs than peddling overpriced pantry foods and second rate Pepsi drinks.

Due to clearance issues in NYP, and in Baltimore, the best you can hope for is something like the panorama cars that VIA adds between Edmonton and Vancouver.

1. Superliners don't need to worry about NYP or Baltimore.
2. Even if they did a dome could be removed and attached just as easily as any other car.

3. Hypothetically even dual levels could support a dome on routes that allow Plate H or K.

4. I wouldn't pay one red cent for the option to sit inside one of VIA's silly "panorama" cars.

5. If there's not enough of a benefit to charge a premium then what is the point of having it?

I think they should replace the dining car with a buffet car. Have the car like a buffet restaurant where you can pick a variety of food.

The word "buffet" can have many meanings. For instance, it could mean stale or gooey or overcooked or even fossilized. I've experienced buffet meals of all types from $10 USD to $200 SGD and every price between. None of them was worth the money.

1. I have actually been in the Panorama car, although it wasn't as good as a traditional dome, apart from the high seat backs which prevented me from seeing ahead, and the lack of tables and booth seating, it was just fine to me, better than an Amfleet cafe car by a country mile.

2. Amtrak should provide complimentary second rate pepsi drinks for dome/sleeper passengers

3. why don't Superliners need to worry about WAS & BLI? I know WAS can accomodates Superliners just fine, but what about the B & P tunnel immediately located next to BLI

4. Buffet cars have promise, just not on Amtrak, they would work right outside my house much better

5. High and low level diaphrams probably wouldn't work, since single level cars are much higher up than the lower level of superliners, so they would only be compatible with other superliners, and I'm not sure if they would be too tall to fit two on top of each other.

6. Aloha airlines went one better than dome seating, open top on one flight, it seems the passengers didn't like it very much!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

 

[bmjhagen9426]

Aloha airlines went one better than dome seating, open top on one flight, it seems the passengers didn't like it very much!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

The passengers on Aloha Airlines 243 not only disliked what had happened, but also were in the valley of the shadow of death, and one flight attendant known as C. B. was sucked out and the ocean never gave up her body. That flight ended up being diverted with an emergency landing, which was a miracle landing, with all but one (that poor flight attendant) occupants surviving.

And might I ask, how is that doomed Aloha airlines flight relavent to dome sitting? That open ceiling on planes is abnormal occurence.

 

[railiner]

I don't care much for buffet (the "take-all-you-want", type) restaurants on land; and like the idea even less on a moving train...

First of all, there is gross waste of food. Secondly, elderly passengers would have a difficult time carrying trays on a fast-moving train, especially over rough areas of tracks, although waiter assistance could solve that problem....

Not to mention the unsanitary actions of some children and even some adults in handling foods....(can you say norovirus outbreak?).

As for domes being a "unique benefit that only rail travel can provide"....the old Greyhound "Scenicruiser" (GM PD-4501), built in the mid fifties, sure came close....

 

[TylerP42]

I don't care much for buffet (the "take-all-you-want", type) restaurants on land; and like the idea even less on a moving train...

First of all, there is gross waste of food. Secondly, elderly passengers would have a difficult time carrying trays on a fast-moving train, especially over rough areas of tracks, although waiter assistance could solve that problem....

Not to mention the unsanitary actions of some children and even some adults in handling foods....(can you say norovirus outbreak?).

As for domes being a "unique benefit that only rail travel can provide"....the old Greyhound "Scenicruiser" (GM PD-4501), built in the mid fifties, sure came close....

I agree. Buffets on a train sound like a disaster. I can already see silverware and plates on the ground from the train rocking and shaking things.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

I don't care much for buffet (the "take-all-you-want", type) restaurants on land; and like the idea even less on a moving train...

First of all, there is gross waste of food. Secondly, elderly passengers would have a difficult time carrying trays on a fast-moving train, especially over rough areas of tracks, although waiter assistance could solve that problem....

Not to mention the unsanitary actions of some children and even some adults in handling foods....(can you say norovirus outbreak?).

As for domes being a "unique benefit that only rail travel can provide"....the old Greyhound "Scenicruiser" (GM PD-4501), built in the mid fifties, sure came close....

I agree. Buffets on a train sound like a disaster. I can already see silverware and plates on the ground from the train rocking and shaking things.

Wait a minute... You say silverware and plates end up on the floor. But why haven't I heard of that kind of incident on a dining car?

 

[TylerP42]

I don't care much for buffet (the "take-all-you-want", type) restaurants on land; and like the idea even less on a moving train...

First of all, there is gross waste of food. Secondly, elderly passengers would have a difficult time carrying trays on a fast-moving train, especially over rough areas of tracks, although waiter assistance could solve that problem....

Not to mention the unsanitary actions of some children and even some adults in handling foods....(can you say norovirus outbreak?).

As for domes being a "unique benefit that only rail travel can provide"....the old Greyhound "Scenicruiser" (GM PD-4501), built in the mid fifties, sure came close....

I agree. Buffets on a train sound like a disaster. I can already see silverware and plates on the ground from the train rocking and shaking things.

Wait a minute... You say silverware and plates end up on the floor. But why haven't I heard of that kind of incident on a dining car?

Ever seen a buffet?

They stack plates and silverware for easy pickup.

And actually; I have had my drink tip over in the dining car before.

 

[Maglev]

Wasn't or isn't there a buffet on Auto Train? And I seem to remember a buffet of sorts in the "Pacific Parlor Car."

 

[jis]

There have been buffets on trains. Some of the kids here are too young to know about such things. They think that anything that they have not seen, never existed, and are too lazy to google it. That's all.

I just googled "Auto Train Buffet" and looky what I found: