Amtrak dining and cafe service

[zephyr17]

The Canadian has a larger dining car staff.

Perhaps the term is fully staffed. It is at the same staffing level Amtrak used to have.

 

[MARC Rider]

The Canadian has a larger dining car staff.

What was the size of the dining car staff back in the "good old days" when they could really cook stuff to order? I would think that by 2010, though Amtrak still had some pretty good food in the diner, most of the stuff was pre-cooked, and service was pretty stripped down.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Perhaps the term is fully staffed. It is at the same staffing level Amtrak used to have.

If the current staff can provide adequate service, why do you think Amtrak should lose more money in order to provide a larger menu? How does that make sense?

What was the size of the dining car staff back in the "good old days" when they could really cook stuff to order? I would think that by 2010, though Amtrak still had some pretty good food in the diner, most of the stuff was pre-cooked, and service was pretty stripped down.

I believe Southern Railway had up to 4 people in the kitchen + servers and a Steward. I see no reason that staffing would be justified on Amtrak trains. The current staffing and service levels on amtrak traditional dining seems perfectly adequate to me.

Do you think that all amtrak dining car itmes should be fully cooked to order from raw ingredients? Should Amtrak pay a baker so you have fresh baked from scratch bread, pastries, and desserts? That seems quite extreme to me.

 

[fdaley]

I think the lack of menu variety becomes more of an issue for people making longer trips, rather than frequent ones. If you go from the Northeast to the West Coast and back, as we used to do nearly every year in the pre-flex era, you have three dining car dinners on the way west, then maybe one or two on the Coast Starlight, and then three more on the return trip (maybe two if using the Lake Shore, or perhaps four if using the Sunset and Eagle or Crescent). Even allowing for a few stopovers en route, that is a lot of dinners from the exact same menu within a two- or three-week vacation. And of course, if someone dislikes or can't eat one or two of the entree items, that person winds up choosing among the same couple of items over and over. Having even one "regional specialty" that rotated or was unique to a particular train or group of trains would make a big difference.

For frequent travel on a single-overnight run, such as from New York to Atlanta or Florida, even if I made the trip a couple of times a month, I don't think I would be bothered by having the same menu every trip.

 

[ehbowen]

What was the size of the dining car staff back in the "good old days" when they could really cook stuff to order? I would think that by 2010, though Amtrak still had some pretty good food in the diner, most of the stuff was pre-cooked, and service was pretty stripped down.

According to Santa Fe, the normal staffing of a 36- or 48- seat dining car in transcontinental service was:

• Four cooks (Chef, cook, third cook, fourth cook. The third cook did mostly prep and cold items (salads, sandwiches), fourth cook was largely clean-up.)
• Six waiters, one for each pair of tables (6 or 8 diners).
• One steward in overall charge of the car.

I haven't seen anything official, but I believe that the 80-seat Hi-Level diners on El Capitan ran with six cooks and ten waiters, plus a steward.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In order for the dining cars to be operated efficiently, they need to have a fairly small menu with entrees that will please the majority of passengers. In order to do that, there needs to be a steak, grilled or rotisserie chicken, grilled fish, and a vegetarian option. So there isn't too much room for rotating menu items.

Long haul flights only have a few entrees to choose from but the options vary from route to route, direction to direction, and month to month.

Agreed! I don’t understand how people that ride even as often as “once a month” can complain about the menu choices. How many of them don’t repeat their dinners at home at least that often?

We repeat dinners of our choosing from thousands of options. If supermarkets only had supplies for a few meals this retort would make more sense.

Do you think that all amtrak dining car itmes should be fully cooked to order from raw ingredients? Should Amtrak pay a baker so you have fresh baked from scratch bread, pastries, and desserts? That seems quite extreme to me.

Have you looked at Amtrak sleeper fares recently? Absurd pricing begets absurd expectations.

 

[zephyr17]

If the current staff can provide adequate service, why do you think Amtrak should lose more money in order to provide a larger menu? How does that make sense?


I believe Southern Railway had up to 4 people in the kitchen + servers and a Steward. I see no reason that staffing would be justified on Amtrak trains. The current staffing and service levels on amtrak traditional dining seems perfectly adequate to me.

Do you think that all amtrak dining car itmes should be fully cooked to order from raw ingredients? Should Amtrak pay a baker so you have fresh baked from scratch bread, pastries, and desserts? That seems quite extreme to me.

The short staffing also means they cannot utilize all tables, particularly in Superliners, where it is seldom more than half the tables are used at any one time now and frequently no more than a third of the tables.

That means fewer people can be served and less capacity for coach passengers.

So there's that.

 

[jis]

The short staffing also means they cannot utilize all tables, particularly in Superliners, where it is seldom more than half the tables are used at any one time now and frequently no more than a third of the tables.

That means fewer people can be served and less capacity for coach passengers.

So there's that.

This staff reduction leading to not serving all tables IIRC happened sometime in the 2000's decade. There were elaborate service plans given to the Diner LSAs on how to serve a limited number of table in a staggered fashion, which some LSAs followed and some did not, leading to the usual expected chaos.

 

[zephyr17]

This staff reduction leading to not serving all tables IIRC happened sometime in the 2000's decade. There were elaborate service plans given to the Diner LSAs on how to serve a limited number of table in a staggered fashion, which some LSAs followed and some did not, leading to the usual expected chaos.

Yeah, that was the "Simplified Dining Service" (SDS) and called for sittings of like one or two tables at 15 minute intervals, IIRC. It was one of the initial responses to the Mica Amendment requiring the subsidy to F&B be phased out. It was a mess.

I think that's when the trains lost their last vestiges of train by train specialties, too and the menu became entirely standardized (despite the fact that they still printed separate menus with each trains graphics).

 

[ehbowen]

With the full staffing which I mentioned above, it was possible to serve the best of hot fresh food and still turn tables every 30-40 minutes, for six or more complete seatings during a meal period. A single 48 seat diner could feed a train of 300 passengers. Yes, the diners still lost money, but...well, I think that, "Go big or go home!" applies here. Satisfied passengers come back, and they tell their friends.

Fun factoid: I've heard it seriously opined that an average of two or even one more first-class passenger per trip on the named trains of the pre-Amtrak era would have turned their ledgers from red to black.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Have you looked at Amtrak sleeper fares recently? Absurd pricing begets absurd expectations.

Worse than that... I've paid them! And got a Viewliner I sleeper and a flex meal.

With the full staffing which I mentioned above, it was possible to serve the best of hot fresh food and still turn tables every 30-40 minutes, for six or more complete seatings during a meal period.

Maybe people ate quicker back then but I don't see how you serve a 3-course meal and turn a table in 30-40 minutes. That's certainly not something I would want from Amtrak, I want to relax and enjoy dinner.

"Go big or go home!" applies here. Satisfied passengers come back, and they tell their friends.

Are Amtrak passengers not satisfied with the current traditional dining?

 

[ehbowen]

Maybe people ate quicker back then but I don't see how you serve a 3-course meal and turn a table in 30-40 minutes. That's certainly not something I would want from Amtrak, I want to relax and enjoy dinner.

One of the tricks of the trade was 'make-aheads.' Soup, appetizers and such were ready to go. As soon as the waiter left with your order he would be back with your first course right away, and while you were working on that the chef would be busy working on your entree. You don't have to 'rush' diners (except during wartime...check the old ads!), but when you minimize long waits for the next course it becomes easier to turn a table.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

One of the tricks of the trade was 'make-aheads.' Soup, appetizers and such were ready to go. As soon as the waiter left with your order he would be back with your first course right away, and while you were working on that the chef would be busy working on your entree. You don't have to 'rush' diners (except during wartime...check the old ads!), but when you minimize long waits for the next course it becomes easier to turn a table.

That's the same way Amtrak dining cars can work... salads and rolls are ready to go.

 

[Steve4031]

I wonder if those trains did seating reservations. I recall a trip I took with my dad in 1978 on the Empire Builder. For whatever reason we did not make the first seating in the diner. We stood in a long line that snaked back into the car next to the diner. I remember standing in the vestibule area for 30 minutes during our over an-hour-long wait. Both Dutch doors were open because the AC was not working in the diner, and that little door across from the kitchen was also open. The side door to the kitchen was open as well. They did feed all of the passengers that wanted dinner that night. But that crew had to have been totally exhausted working under those conditions. In the 80s on Superliners, I remember names being called over the intercom. I don't exactly remember when Amtrak started dinner reservations but this was a huge improvement.

 

[jis]

I wonder if those trains did seating reservations. I recall a trip I took with my dad in 1978 on the Empire Builder. For whatever reason we did not make the first seating in the diner. We stood in a long line that snaked back into the car next to the diner. I remember standing in the vestibule area for 30 minutes during our over an-hour-long wait. Both Dutch doors were open because the AC was not working in the diner, and that little door across from the kitchen was also open. The side door to the kitchen was open as well. They did feed all of the passengers that wanted dinner that night. But that crew had to have been totally exhausted working under those conditions. In the 80s on Superliners, I remember names being called over the intercom. I don't exactly remember when Amtrak started dinner reservations but this was a huge improvement.

Yes. I remember standing in long lines on the Broadway Limited back in the late '70s and early '80s. I used to travel regularly to Portland OR in the early '80s, Slumbercoach to Chicago and then Coach to Portland on the Pioneer or the EB Portland Section.

 

[MARC Rider]

Yes. I remember standing in long lines on the Broadway Limited back in the late '70s and early '80s. I used to travel regularly to Portland OR in the early '80s, Slumbercoach to Chicago and then Coach to Portland on the Pioneer or the EB Portland Section.

No reservations in the dining cars at least until 1990. I remember eating on the Merchant's Limited in 1975; I was able to have a full dinner while riding between Trenton and Newark. The waiters were frighteningly efficient. You filled out your order and gave it to the waiter. Only three items on the menu -- Steak, chicken, or fish. I usually got the fish because it was only $2, and I was a poor college student. The train was busy and I never remember having to stand in line. Service on the Broadway Limited when I rode it in 1973 was similar, but the train wasn't as full, and, again, I needed no reservation and didn't have to stand in line. My next long-distance trip was on the Crescent in 1990, and the dining car service wasn't as nice. They served on styrofoam plates, and it seemed to me like the meal had been heated in a microwave. Also, I wanted to pay with a credit card, and it took them forever to process the transaction. By the time I started riding long-distance trains more regularly in the late 1990s, the meals were included in the sleeper fares, and the waiters were taking orders, and reservations were required for dinner.

 

[allanorn]

I think the lack of menu variety becomes more of an issue for people making longer trips, rather than frequent ones. If you go from the Northeast to the West Coast and back, as we used to do nearly every year in the pre-flex era, you have three dining car dinners on the way west, then maybe one or two on the Coast Starlight, and then three more on the return trip (maybe two if using the Lake Shore, or perhaps four if using the Sunset and Eagle or Crescent). Even allowing for a few stopovers en route, that is a lot of dinners from the exact same menu within a two- or three-week vacation. And of course, if someone dislikes or can't eat one or two of the entree items, that person winds up choosing among the same couple of items over and over. Having even one "regional specialty" that rotated or was unique to a particular train or group of trains would make a big difference.

For frequent travel on a single-overnight run, such as from New York to Atlanta or Florida, even if I made the trip a couple of times a month, I don't think I would be bothered by having the same menu every trip.

Agreed. Some variance would be nice, either a regional dish rotation per train or quarterly diner car menus. But I get that national standardization (or at least Western trains and Eastern trains as two separate menus) makes sense from an economics and simplicity perspective.

I did my EMY-PDX-CHI-NYP run in 2013 when they had "vegetables of the month". While I was impressed that Amtrak staff figured out how to use fiesta corn at every meal, consuming fiesta corn for three days straight isn't good for your digestive tract.

 

[poncho]

They have started allowing coach Pax on the western LDs since March! I have indulged as traditional dining as a coach passenger twice so far!

Curious about the dining car non-sleeper menu prices now? Prices were very high before, are they astronomical now for paying by cash?

 

[trimetbusfan]

Curious about the dining car non-sleeper menu prices now? Prices were very high before, are they astronomical now for paying by cash?

It's a little different than what it was before. Amtrak charges a flat rate for meals now. The prices do not differ depending on which entree you get, rather which meal service you attend.

$20 for breakfast (includes entree)
$25 for lunch (includes entree + desert)
$45 for dinner (includes app. + bread + entree + desert + 1 alcoholic bev).

All means also include unlimited nonalcoholic beverages.

I wouldn't say it's 'astronomical' but I guess that depends on who you ask.

 

[zephyr17]

Curious about the dining car non-sleeper menu prices now? Prices were very high before, are they astronomical now for paying by cash?

Fixed prices per meal
$20 breakfast
$25 lunch
$45 dinner (includes appetizer, dessert and 1 alcoholic beverage. Not that bad of a deal when all that's considered, especially for the steak)

 

[ehbowen]

Fixed prices per meal
$20 breakfast
$25 lunch
$45 dinner (includes appetizer, dessert and 1 alcoholic beverage. Not that bad of a deal when all that's considered, especially for the steak)

http://streamlinermemories.info/SF/Scout.pdf

Read page 16, and weep....

 

[trimetbusfan]

http://streamlinermemories.info/SF/Scout.pdf

Read page 16, and weep....

that's awesome, but it is 2023, not 1941...

 

[ehbowen]

that's awesome, but it is 2023, not 1941...

And so your point is that providing a needed and desired high-quality service at a price point which average customers can afford is a notion too quaint and old fashioned for our modern times? That is your view of progress?

If so, I have this little quote from C.S. Lewis in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:

“Have you no idea of progress, of development?"
"I have seen them both in an egg," said Caspian. "We call it 'Going Bad' in Narnia”

 

[railiner]

I wonder if those trains did seating reservations. I recall a trip I took with my dad in 1978 on the Empire Builder. For whatever reason we did not make the first seating in the diner. We stood in a long line that snaked back into the car next to the diner. I remember standing in the vestibule area for 30 minutes during our over an-hour-long wait. Both Dutch doors were open because the AC was not working in the diner, and that little door across from the kitchen was also open. The side door to the kitchen was open as well. They did feed all of the passengers that wanted dinner that night. But that crew had to have been totally exhausted working under those conditions. In the 80s on Superliners, I remember names being called over the intercom. I don't exactly remember when Amtrak started dinner reservations but this was a huge improvement.

Not sure when Amtrak began taking dinner reservations, perhaps when they began including with room charge?; but when I rode the original CZ back in 1969, the Zephyrette passed thru the train each afternoon taking dinner reservations…

 

[MARC Rider]

that's awesome, but it is 2023, not 1941...

Actually, according to my inflation calculator, 60 cents (the price of the full dinner) in 1941 is equivalent to $12.42 in today's money. That's pretty impressive, because you'd be hard-pressed to find a dinner for $12-$13 today even off the rails. (By the way, the quoted one-way coach fare CHI - LA of $39.50 is equivalent to $811 in today's money, the "Tourist Pullman" fare of $49.50 is equivalent to $1,016 in 2023 dollars. )

It's hard to compare exactly what these price differences mean. What did a full dinner cost in a mass-market restaurant in 1941? What were median and average salaries/wages like back then?

Well, here's an example from the era:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a7/79/58/a77958ccf61664be94fd9970a3626986.jpg
Looks like entrees were in the 40-60 cent range, a full dinner could be easily a dollar. Steaks were about 90 cents. A dollar back in 1941 was the equivalent of 20 dollars today, so, in general, I think perhaps restaurant meals were cheaper back in the 1940s than they are today. By the way, if one can get a time machine, please go back and visit the Warner Bors. Studio Cafe and order some Sauerkraut Juice for 15 cents and tell me what it's like. I guess peoples' taste has changed over the years.

It's possible the Warner Bros. Studio Cafe had subsidized prices for studio employees. Here's a menu from the famous Brown Derby Restuarant from 1941:

https://i0.wp.com/www.martinturnbul...017/01/Brown-Derby-menu-19.jpg?resize=640,422
Full meal prices were closer to $2 (or $40 in today's money.) A porterhouse steak was $3, or $60.

So the Amtrak prices don't seem out of whack with restaurant meals -- what's more interesting is how Fred Harvey managed to serve a full meal for 60 cents (or $12). Of course, there were only 2 dinner entrees, fish and chicken.