Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

I don't know about the fourth icon. I would need to see the entire D4500CT in Greyhound colors to see if it looks good or not. But I do enjoy riding that model far more than the D4505. Rumors are out that Greyhound cancelled 40 D4505's in favor of D4500CT's. The CT's are 2015 model year, owned by Massachusetts and based from Boston Garage. No more information.

The DL3 has the same black roof cap. I like that look myself, it doesn't look that much like a bald head when you see it in the open. The J4500 really looks bad with the white roof cap, it should always get painted black to avoid looking bald. Then again, I shave my head, occasionally.

Just curious, why would Massachusetts purchase buses for Greyhound?

 

[railiner]

Yes...I'm curious about that, too....

I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....

I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....

 

[The Journalist]

On Greyhound's website there aren't any Reno-San Francisco runs branded as "Express" trips and one can't book that trip via the "Greyhound Express" subsite...but there do seem to be several two-stop runs that only stop in Sacramento and Oakland; no idea if those were there before. 5 hours for Reno-SF isn't bad at all. Clearly they're trying to attract the Megabus crowd by shortening their trips and massively discounting web fares-several of them are actually less than Mega. I personally am entirely pleased with this development.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You're in Reno too? Go to the Greyhound station right by Winfield Park, they have repainted the interior and labeled "Greyhound Express" all over the place plus the red carpet. But the runs are packed already, and Greyhound now runs 6x daily to San Fran, was 5x daily. Megabus or not, Greyhound is doing well. Heck, Greyhound introduced a Denver-El Paso Limited, and that has nothing to do with Megabus, that one costs only $36.50 in advance.

All the buses are upgraded already, the furnishings at the stations are in place, no more overbooking, it's basically Greyhound Express without saying "Express" on the website.

But the buses to SLC/Denver are generally better because the California D4505's are too unpredictable. The 863- and 864- series are decent, the 865-series is not so good. The SLC/Denver runs almost never get a 865, usually it's an old DL3 or Blue G4500 both of which are significantly more comfortable than the 865-D4505's.

If you think Massachusetts buying buses for Greyhound is weird, what about the Utah-owned 863-series D4505's that run out of SLC? That one is really weird. Those Utah D4505's are fine for daytime rides (like Reno-SLC daytime) but bad at night, like the other 863-D4505's. At night you need an old bus to sleep well, a DL3 or even a Blue G4500. Reno-SLC is really fast too, says 9:50 but it's always 15-20 minutes early, need to cut padding.

 

[The Journalist]

Yeah I live in Reno. I'll go check out that station soon; I was in there about a month ago seeing someone off (they were going to SLC) and one of the employees said something about how the schedule going west was going to change soon. The new limited-stop runs were probably what she meant.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Oh yeah, I think I might know the fourth icon on the D4500CT's door. Anyone think it's for Greyhound BLUE, the new entertainment system? Those buses are based from Boston Garage, a highly-competitive area. Whether it's running, Boston-New York, Boston-Cleveland, Boston-Montreal, or Boston-Bangor, there's a lot of competition, and Greyhound might be trying out BLUE in that area to gain ridership further.

What's interesting is that Greyhound has not lost any ridership against Megabus, right now it's merely a fight to grab new passengers, and Greyhound is trying to gain the upper hand with those long-haul Limiteds that Megabus can't cover. Looks to be working and the Greyhound LDs and ULDs are growing like crazy. Greyhound execs say the whole network will have Express and Limited service by 2016 (excluding Greyhound Connect and the rural routes), I think that would include New York-Los Angeles.

 

[railiner]

Reno-SLC is really fast too, says 9:50 but it's always 15-20 minutes early, need to cut padding.

IMHO, 15-20 minutes of padding on a 9 hour and 50 minute schedule is entirely reasonable, and probably a good thing to have, when you consider all of the potential for delays enroute, not to mention, starting late due to waiting on connection, etc......

 

[rickycourtney]

Found another interesting and very positive article on Greyhound. This time from the 'hound's hometown newspaper, The Dallas Morning News: Greyhound starting to get its stride back

Here's my tl;dr highlights:

• CEO says that says that competition from Megabus can benefit Greyhound because "it calls attention to buses."
• Despite the ultra long distance routes being re-introduced "city pairs" are Greyhound's focus and the company is emphasizing "shorter and more frequent routes between cities 300 or so miles apart."
• All bus rebuilds will be finished in August.
• The average cost of rebuilding a bus is $120,000 while a new bus configured to Greyhound's specifications costs approximately $500,000.

 

[rickycourtney]

On Greyhound's website there aren't any Reno-San Francisco runs branded as "Express" trips and one can't book that trip via the "Greyhound Express" subsite...but there do seem to be several two-stop runs that only stop in Sacramento and Oakland; no idea if those were there before. 5 hours for Reno-SF isn't bad at all. Clearly they're trying to attract the Megabus crowd by shortening their trips and massively discounting web fares-several of them are actually less than Mega. I personally am entirely pleased with this development.

That's got to be coding error on the Greyhound website. Those are definitely Greyhound Express runs and they shoube marked as such. I'm sure if this was brought to Greyhound's attention it would be fixed.

But the buses to SLC/Denver are generally better because the California D4505's are too unpredictable. The 863- and 864- series are decent, the 865-series is not so good. The SLC/Denver runs almost never get a 865, usually it's an old DL3 or Blue G4500 both of which are significantly more comfortable than the 865-D4505's.

What's the difference between the 863XX, 864XX and the 865XX buses? What exactly makes them more comfortable in your opinion?

If you think Massachusetts buying buses for Greyhound is weird, what about the Utah-owned 863-series D4505's that run out of SLC? That one is really weird. Those Utah D4505's are fine for daytime rides (like Reno-SLC daytime) but bad at night, like the other 863-D4505's. At night you need an old bus to sleep well, a DL3 or even a Blue G4500. Reno-SLC is really fast too, says 9:50 but it's always 15-20 minutes early, need to cut padding.

Utah is a big ass state with lots of rural areas... I don't think it's weird for them to be buying buses to support "essential rural services".

On the other hand Massachusetts is a very urban state. I think it's weird that they would be buying buses for Greyhound. They must have specifically requested that service be expanded on a route... but I can't figure out what route. Also, the fact that the buses are D4500CT's suggests that Massachusetts bough the buses themselves (instead of Greyhound adding it to a current order with MCI.)

 

[rickycourtney]

So I'm thinking about taking a trip down to Olympia later this month. The problem is the Amtrak station is way out on the edge of town and to get to Downtown you have to catch a once hourly transit bus that takes 45 minutes each way. I also looked into taking transit buses from Seattle and the only direct route runs during peak hours, in the peak direction only (I don't want to overnight) all other options involve transferring to another bus in Tacoma or Lakewood. That leaves Greyhound as the only good option.

Curious thing I noted while researching this trip... schedule 6889 is marked as a Greyhound Express schedule... the only Express schedule in the northwest. What makes it an "Express" is that between Seattle and Portland the bus only stops in Tacoma and Olympia, skipping Centralia and Kelso. There's also no reverse run like this... all buses between Portland and Seattle stop in Centralia and Kelso.

I'm also planning a trip down to Portland. I probably won't take Greyhound (I don't want to stop in Tacoma, Olympia, Centralia and Kelso en route) but I am considering taking BoltBus again. I was pretty impressed with the service on my first trip.

I guess that brings up another point... if I was a manager at Greyhound... I would consider merging BoltBus back into Greyhound once Greyhound has fully rebuilt it's image.

I would start off slowly... place a Greyhound logo by the front door that says "BoltBus is proudly operated by Greyhound." After a year or so start rebranding BoltBus routes as like "Greyhound Rapid" routes. I can imagine a clever ad campaign that has the paint peeling back from a BoltBus revealing the Greyhound blue underneath. Maybe have a dedicated fleet of "Greyhound Rapid" buses that are blue but have a prominent red racing stripe with a blue and white lightning bolt. Merging would bring more millennials like myself back to Greyhound. If your BoltBus becomes a Greyhound Rapid, you're more likely to try a Greyhound Express route or a regular Greyhound route in the future.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I read that article about the "stride" but Greyhound is adding longer and longer routes while not adding short routes at all. I received further explanation from Greyhound employees in that Greyhound is making a railway-style network, as opposed to airline-style hub and spoke. This is the theory "bus men" have agreed on:

Greyhound is making hubs around the country. Then, there's tons of short routes from all these hubs. And now Greyhound is connecting multiple hubs with the long-haul corridors. This is railway-style because a lot of train networks in foreign countries have these long-haul corridors with Limited, Express, and Local service, then at major stations (hubs), there are SD trains radiating to other cities.

Case in point: Dallas. There's LD corridors to Los Angeles, Denver, Chicago, Richmond, and Atlanta, plus the Limited to Detroit. These corridors have a mix of service speeds. Then there's shorter routes radiating from Dallas, like Houston, Laredo, Oklahoma City, etc. You can make out the same pattern with Los Angeles, Chicago, Saint Louis, Richmond, New York, etc. Denver is kinda special because it only has LD corridors, no SD routes.

Yes, Greyhound is focusing on shorter city pairs, but LD corridors are the framework on which these SD routes are built upon. This is unlike Megabus or BoltBus who have mini-airline style networks, nonstop or one-stop from each hub to destinations around it, and no through service.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Now about the 863, 864, and 865 buses. Well 863 and 864 are from the same batch, and they have Detroit 60-H EGR engines. Their ride seems to be smoother and quieter than the 865 buses. Also, their seats seem to sag less. Maybe the 865 batch went wrong.

It's just a theory, but you have to look at that D4500CT now. It's #MA86576. That is supposed to be a D4505, part of the 130-unit order. Greyhound's next X3-45 starts at #86650, leaving enough space for all the 130 D4505's (starting at #86500), plus options, and BoltBus units. So that space is supposed to be filled with D4505's. But Greyhound received the last batch after #86567, and they were "awaiting acceptance" months ago. Those buses never made it onto the roster. So this explains the Massachusetts D4500CT's.

Greyhound was apparently angry at MCI over the 865-series, and MCI negotiated with Greyhound while watching Prevosts stream into their fleet. To appease Greyhound, MCI is offering the D4500CT, which has been proven in commuter service, at no exchange fee to Greyhound. That seems to be a plausible theory. Greyhound's current 865-series ends abruptly at #86567.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

As for Utah ordering buses for Greyhound, all the Greyhound routes out of SLC actually make money, so I still don't understand it. The only two routes out of SLC are to Reno and Las Vegas. Both definitely make profits. The other routes are through from Denver or New York, Denver-Las Vegas/Los Angeles, Denver-Portland, Denver-Reno, New York-Los Angeles. All of those are making money. Greyhound has no rural routes in Utah other than Denver-SLC-Reno which takes US 40 between DEN and SLC. That route is still profitable because of the big cities and connections at either end. So Utah only ordered the buses to "help" Greyhound.

I think it's time Greyhound starts Express out of Seattle. First Portland-Tacoma-Seattle-Bellingham-Vancouver, then later Seattle--Yakima-Pasco-Stanfield and Seattle-Moses Lake-Spokane-Coeur d'Alene-Saint Regis-Missoula. Use those Blue G4500's and H3-45's. Keep BoltBus, it's a useful brand name to exploit. Greyhound can gather passengers under two names instead of one. If one passenger gets mad at either, he would still try the other. BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.

"6889" is actually 1429, appears to be a glitch. Check the System Timetable and you'll see. That's a Vancouver-Los Angeles run. I know, very confusing.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

Yes...I'm curious about that, too....

I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....

I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....

The bus was purchased as part of the MA intercity bus program for a single 5/7 round trip to Brattleboro, VT (Table 64) in Extranet. Started in April.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.

Those buses are on loan, as the 2008 Bolt's go in for refurbs - they packed over 650k miles on each of the first 33 and are in need of TLC. Same will happen with the '09's. Greyhound's are a bit better, as many of them haven't taken on as many miles yet (remember that the 17 blue buses in the 2008 order were generally assigned to NYD, ACY and PHL).

 

[rickycourtney]

BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.

Those buses are on loan, as the 2008 Bolt's go in for refurbs - they packed over 650k miles on each of the first 33 and are in need of TLC. Same will happen with the '09's. Greyhound's are a bit better, as many of them haven't taken on as many miles yet (remember that the 17 blue buses in the 2008 order were generally assigned to NYD, ACY and PHL).

That makes since. When I rode some of the 2009 BoltBus units earlier this year... the seats were pretty beat up. The leather/vinyl was tearing on a lot of the seats... exposing the webbing below. My only hope is that they replace these horribly uncomfortable seats instead of just reupholstering them.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

I guess that brings up another point... if I was a manager at Greyhound... I would consider merging BoltBus back into Greyhound once Greyhound has fully rebuilt it's image.

I would start off slowly... place a Greyhound logo by the front door that says "BoltBus is proudly operated by Greyhound." After a year or so start rebranding BoltBus routes as like "Greyhound Rapid" routes. I can imagine a clever ad campaign that has the paint peeling back from a BoltBus revealing the Greyhound blue underneath. Maybe have a dedicated fleet of "Greyhound Rapid" buses that are blue but have a prominent red racing stripe with a blue and white lightning bolt. Merging would bring more millennials like myself back to Greyhound. If your BoltBus becomes a Greyhound Rapid, you're more likely to try a Greyhound Express route or a regular Greyhound route in the future.

Greyhound does not have the goodwill of their brand to do this. It will take decades to rebuild their image, and much more than new buses, cap fixed and new terminals (although it's definitely a good start). What Bolt has going for them is the fact that people do not immediately associate them with Greyhound. That, above everything else, is why it worked in the first place.

I've seen it first hand. For years, Bolt has placed GLI and PPB units on in a pinch to cover schedules with Bolt drivers. As soon as this happens, guaranteed the complaints go up the next day because people are not on a "Bolt" branded bus, even though the bus they're on may be better comfort and feature wise. Same has happened when they used Yankee, Raritan, Cavalier and Martz.

Not saying it won't happen, but it's unlikely that they'll want 80-90% attrition of their customer base with the switch.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.

Those buses are on loan, as the 2008 Bolt's go in for refurbs - they packed over 650k miles on each of the first 33 and are in need of TLC. Same will happen with the '09's. Greyhound's are a bit better, as many of them haven't taken on as many miles yet (remember that the 17 blue buses in the 2008 order were generally assigned to NYD, ACY and PHL).

That makes since. When I rode some of the 2009 BoltBus units earlier this year... the seats were pretty beat up. The leather/vinyl was tearing on a lot of the seats... exposing the webbing below. My only hope is that they replace these horribly uncomfortable seats instead of just reupholstering them.

The drivers and staff (me included) complained about it from day zero. They claimed it was a "safety" feature (the lumbar upright support on the leather seats).

The best way to combat it from my experience is to place a cloth bag (not plastic), on the seat and recline it about 10-20 degrees. You're less likely to slide this way.

Granted - the next batch of buses they received (the first set of D45s) had green cushion seats........the jury's still out on that one.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

Oh yeah, I think I might know the fourth icon on the D4500CT's door. Anyone think it's for Greyhound BLUE, the new entertainment system? Those buses are based from Boston Garage, a highly-competitive area. Whether it's running, Boston-New York, Boston-Cleveland, Boston-Montreal, or Boston-Bangor, there's a lot of competition, and Greyhound might be trying out BLUE in that area to gain ridership further.

What's interesting is that Greyhound has not lost any ridership against Megabus, right now it's merely a fight to grab new passengers, and Greyhound is trying to gain the upper hand with those long-haul Limiteds that Megabus can't cover. Looks to be working and the Greyhound LDs and ULDs are growing like crazy. Greyhound execs say the whole network will have Express and Limited service by 2016 (excluding Greyhound Connect and the rural routes), I think that would include New York-Los Angeles.

They gained back some of the passengers they lost and attracted others with the competition from Megabus. Testing of the BLUE system originated in Dallas early last year and has since expanded.

 

[railiner]

Yes...I'm curious about that, too....

I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....

I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....

The bus was purchased as part of the MA intercity bus program for a single 5/7 round trip to Brattleboro, VT (Table 64) in Extranet. Started in April.

Okay....I see the footnote on that timetable telling of Mass. DOT support. But what for the life of me, I can't figure out, is why? The schedule leaves Boston, makes a couple of stops in NH, and terminates in Vt. So the only state with any intrastate service is NH. Why would Massachusetts support those trips?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Yes...I'm curious about that, too....

I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....

I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....

The bus was purchased as part of the MA intercity bus program for a single 5/7 round trip to Brattleboro, VT (Table 64) in Extranet. Started in April.

Okay....I see the footnote on that timetable telling of Mass. DOT support. But what for the life of me, I can't figure out, is why? The schedule leaves Boston, makes a couple of stops in NH, and terminates in Vt. So the only state with any intrastate service is NH. Why would Massachusetts support those trips?

Best Guess; shoppers and day trippers use the bus tocome to Boston as tourists and spend lots of money as Boston is an expensive City and the traffic is really bad so they don't want to drive???!!!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The Reno-SLC is actually padded about 10-20 minutes at every stop, 20 minutes at the end. So the buses always arrive 20 minutes early but if you cut the padding in the middle they would shave 1 hour off the timetable and still be on-time.

So I was taking a look at the new Los Angeles-Vancouver route and it seems like Sacramento-Portland is still the most packed segment. 3/4 of all buses on that segment were SOLD OUT or had one seat left, that segment has been packed to the gills every time I've seen it. Meanwhile, none of the PNW segments are sold out. Greyhound definitely still needs Bolt in the PNW which carries about twice the ridership Seattle-Portland as Greyhound, the G4500 debacle is probably the main reason.

Apparently MCI modified the suspension for the 2014 D4505 model year with the new "MCI Dynamic Suspension", also modified other mechanisms to gain an edge over Prevost and Van Hool, but those new tech probably messed up. Greyhound's #86528-86567 are 2014 model year, built late 2013 actual year. Looking at the VIN's, they were apparently the first 2014 D4505's with the new tech, so Greyhound could have gotten mad about its unreliable performance and cancelled the remaining D4505's, though another small batch was built for Bolt (#895-901) before everything suddenly stopped.

 

[railiner]

The schedule leaves Boston 1145, arrives Brattleboro 1450, leaves there at 1515, and arrives back in Boston at 1820. And it only operates on Friday's and Sunday's.

So unless the traveler would come to Boston on Friday, and return home on Sunday, they could not do a "day-trip".....

 

[railiner]

The Reno-SLC is actually padded about 10-20 minutes at every stop, 20 minutes at the end. So the buses always arrive 20 minutes early but if you cut the padding in the middle they would shave 1 hour off the timetable and still be on-time.

Okay, I have not researched it, but I'll take your word for it. So perhaps they shoud take out the mid schedule padding, and just leave it between the last two stops on the segment....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Man, it's annoying, I tell ya, every time I ride Reno-SLC the driver makes extra rest stops where there's not supposed to be and extends the planned rest stops to just wait for the schedule. I think it dates from the Double Nickel days or something. Or maybe it used to make more stops and then Greyhound cut those stops and forgot to shrink the timetable.

Yeah, I'm baffled that Massachusetts would order those D4500CT's merely for a once-weekly rural local. I guess that's why Greyhound's sending them to NYD in the meantime.