Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Misty.]

I guess now is as good of a time as any to admit I've been following this thread for awhile I was having one of my days where I wander St. Louis City and County yesterday, and the bus route I take into downtown goes to Gateway Station anyway. Couldn't do a points run, not even a 311 run (the primary spot I went to opened at 9 AM, and I knew I wouldn't be able to get back in time), but I did at least get to see 22 pull in... Also got this picture, originally posted directly to Flickr immediately after taking it, and now posted here on someone's suggestion

(Edited because I'm learning the forum-specific photo upload procedures again and had to delete a duplicate posting of the pic).

 

[railiner]

Very nice shot! Thanks for posting...

And for those other "lurker's" of this thread (we know you're out there, judging by the 'views count',.....please don't be shy....jump right in....we like "The Dog", but we don't bite... :lol:

 

[rickycourtney]

Overnight a Greyhound bus running from Los Angeles to New York (schedule 1682) was hit by a stolen Mustang driving the wrong way on I-70 near the town of Richmond, IN (near the IN/OH border). The driver of the Mustang was killed and 19 people on board the bus were injured including the Greyhound driver who had to be airlifted to the hospital. There were 24 passengers on the bus that had just left Indianapolis, IN and was en route to Troutwood (Dayton), OH.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/one-dead-19-hurt-bus-stolen-car-collide-indiana-n154636

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

A stolen Mustang crashing head-on into a Greyhound bus! The crash didn't happen at night, it happened in broad daylight. Damn, and it was a Prevost.

This was 1679, not 1682, further research shows the accident happened near Richmond just before 7:00 AM, so that would make it 1679 Saint Louis-New York. 1682 passes that point at 11:00 AM.

 

[rickycourtney]

You're right it's 1682. My bad. I'm still new to the Greyhound schedules.

I went back read the AP wire copy and a Greyhound spokesperson said the bus was en route from St. Louis to New York.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Um, 1679 , not 1682. But yeah, I'm confused why Greyhound has an odd-numbered schedule going eastbound. Usually westbound/southbound is odd, and eastbound/northbound is even, just like Amtrak.

By the way, Misty's Saint Louis shot shows no Prevost's, so Prevost's must be rare in STD, I'm betting the STD garage doesn't have any, and the Prevost was from the Northeast pool.

Apparently there's a fence between the two carriageways of that I-70 segment, so the stolen Mustang must have driver up the wrong on-ramp. Too bad the car thief is dead but what do you expect when a Prevost crashes head-on into a Mustang at highway speeds? Reminds me of the Greyhound Canada crash at Fernie a few years back, a G4500 (#1185) at night in the mountains crashed head-on into a mislead car and crushed it, also killing the car driver, and also injuring the Greyhound driver heavily.

 

[rickycourtney]

Apparently there's a fence between the two carriageways of that I-70 segment, so the stolen Mustang must have driver up the wrong on-ramp. Too bad the car thief is dead but what do you expect when a Prevost crashes head-on into a Mustang at highway speeds? Reminds me of the Greyhound Canada crash at Fernie a few years back, a G4500 (#1185) at night in the mountains crashed head-on into a mislead car and crushed it, also killing the car driver, and also injuring the Greyhound driver heavily.

There appears to be a cable barrier between the eastbound and westbound lanes. That means the driver got on the freeway by going up Westbound offramp (that makes the most since, the thief was a Richmond resident) or crossed over at some point (interstates often have crossover points for maintenance and law enforcement. It will likely take a while to come out, but I'm sure toxicology reports will show that this guy was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time of the crash.

It's sad that the Greyhound driver in both of these head-on crashes were seriously injured. On most modern motorcoaches the driver sits close to the roadway while the passengers sit a few feet above and the buses have a flat nose. Its a nice design most of the time. It's easier to drive when you're down lower, passengers get a better view and flat noses make cornering easier. The problem is that there's not a lot of crushable space to protect the driver and being lower puts them on the level of a car in an accident. Thankfully accidents like this are rare.

 

[rickycourtney]

The Greyhound media relations team must be working overtime right now. Another day, another mostly positive article. This time from the USA Today:

Greyhound remakes itself for a new generation

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah that's why I like the DL3, highest driver's seat in the industry. Look at this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/8156510989/sizes/l. Drivers that like the DL3 frequently cite the high driver's seat and smaller windshield than most modern buses.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed. I heard from Greyhound drivers and other bus people that the G4500's are getting refurbished and rebuilt, but still no confirmation and no proper trip report. I'll have to do it myself.

Even older travelers are trying out Greyhound now. Seems like everyone old enough to remember the Greyhound Disasters of the 1980's still hates Greyhound, everyone that can't remember that is now willing to try Greyhound. The Greyhound Disasters were basically when Greyhound had two violent strikes, got sold by their own Corporation, hired "scab" drivers, cut legroom, got rid of many widebody 102A3's, cut routes and frequencies, merged with Continental Trailways (a financial disaster), and then went bankrupt in 1990.

Looking at that photo Misty posted, looks like Blue G4500's are landing in Saint Louis Garage, with two of them at the same time. There's one D4505, probably through run from Los Angeles. I think Saint Louis Garage must be DL3's and Blue G4500's right now.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Hmm, I was just on TTMG and check out those BoltBus seats: http://www.ttmg.org/pages/tmci/greyhound-mci.html. Don't know what type they are but they look more comfortable than the Premier LS.

Could be Amaya Torino G.

Edit: Ugh, link doesn't work, you'll have to go to TTMG - Multimedia - Photos - Bus - Greyhound Lines - 2010-2013 BoltBus D4505 - Interior.

 

[rickycourtney]

Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed.

I would be very interested to hear from an official Greyhound source that overbooking has been stopped. I think it's gonna be impossible for it to be completely eliminated until Greyhound can track seats sold on all routes.

But, I like your theory that the reason why they haven't come out and said overbooking is done... at this point they have no guarantee that connecting routes will be overbooked. The trick to that is making passengers aware that they are booking a "codeshare" schedule and that overbooking is possible.

I think the other issue Greyhound might still have is with routes that have passengers booked by an agent other than Greyhound. Consider the Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach routes operated by Greyhound. Amtrak issues paper tickets for those routes, drivers collect the tickets and Greyhound is paid by Amtrak for each ticket they submit. To my knowledge, there's no communication between Amtrak's booking computer and Greyhound's booking computer. Hopefully this problem can be solved with the switch to eTicketing.

I heard from Greyhound drivers and other bus people that the G4500's are getting refurbished and rebuilt, but still no confirmation and no proper trip report. I'll have to do it myself.

When I talk about a "true" refurbished bus... I'm talking about what ABC Companies did to the 102DL3's. Those coaches were stripped down to the bare metal inside and out and the engines were completely removed. Then they went through and replaced or reconditioned every part to the tune of $120,000 per bus.

I just have a hard time fathoming why Greyhound would spend that much doing something like that to the G4500's. They are clearly getting a much needed facelift and some maintenance... but I still don't think it's a complete refurbishment.

Even older travelers are trying out Greyhound now. Seems like everyone old enough to remember the Greyhound Disasters of the 1980's still hates Greyhound, everyone that can't remember that is now willing to try Greyhound. The Greyhound Disasters were basically when Greyhound had two violent strikes, got sold by their own Corporation, hired "scab" drivers, cut legroom, got rid of many widebody 102A3's, cut routes and frequencies, merged with Continental Trailways (a financial disaster), and then went bankrupt in 1990.

I would argue that Greyhound's image problem wasn't with strikes, drivers, ownership, legroom or finances... it was with clientele.

Like the USA Today article said, the image that most people had (and a lot still have) is that Greyhound passengers are there because they can't afford anything else. There were several high-profile, extremely violent incidents with passengers assaulting drivers or fellow passengers. Incidents like that are rare but they make people extremely uneasy. Then there's the more common problems like drunk passengers, smelly passengers, passengers shout profanities into their phones or that talk to themselves. Those people aren't dangerous but they drive away the "choice passengers" (they'll chose to travel in their own car).

I think that Greyhound has gone a long way correcting this problem. They at least threaten that everyone needs a valid ID, security is ever present at most stations and I'm hearing more stories of drivers kicking off passengers or refusing to let them board. That's opened a window for a younger generation of "choice passengers" who can be wooed by things like power outlets, WiFi and express routes.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed.

I would be very interested to hear from an official Greyhound source that overbooking has been stopped. I think it's gonna be impossible for it to be completely eliminated until Greyhound can track seats sold on all routes.

But, I like your theory that the reason why they haven't come out and said overbooking is done... at this point they have no guarantee that connecting routes will be overbooked. The trick to that is making passengers aware that they are booking a "codeshare" schedule and that overbooking is possible.

I think the other issue Greyhound might still have is with routes that have passengers booked by an agent other than Greyhound. Consider the Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach routes operated by Greyhound. Amtrak issues paper tickets for those routes, drivers collect the tickets and Greyhound is paid by Amtrak for each ticket they submit. To my knowledge, there's no communication between Amtrak's booking computer and Greyhound's booking computer. Hopefully this problem can be solved with the switch to eTicketing.

It will be downright difficult to completely get rid of overbooking on Greyhound.

1. As you mentioned, interline partners, pooling partners and codeshare partners all have different methods of selling and different capacity limits. Good luck trying to have everyone conform to one way of doing things. But more importantly....

2. Atlantic City, Mohegan Sun, Foxwoods - these schedules are NOT capacity fixed on the return trip. If you get rid of the open return for 96 hours rule on these tickets, you lose your ridership base. Try telling the average 60-70 year old rider to "call" or "reserve their seat online." It's not happening. 90% of casino bus trips are cash driven and the sections can sometimes double or triple that of the Northeast Corridor, NYS or Montreal/Toronto. Granted, they don't pull in the traffic they used to, but NYD-ACY is still in the top 5 of city pairs in the Greyhound system.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed.

I heard from Greyhound drivers and other bus people that the G4500's are getting refurbished and rebuilt, but still no confirmation and no proper trip report. I'll have to do it myself.

When I talk about a "true" refurbished bus... I'm talking about what ABC Companies did to the 102DL3's. Those coaches were stripped down to the bare metal inside and out and the engines were completely removed. Then they went through and replaced or reconditioned every part to the tune of $120,000 per bus.

I just have a hard time fathoming why Greyhound would spend that much doing something like that to the G4500's. They are clearly getting a much needed facelift and some maintenance... but I still don't think it's a complete refurbishment.

Money talks. As Dave Leach has said - buying a new coach costs 400-500k. Refurbing a coach to buy 5-7 more years costs $50-125k. First Group is willing to spend money, but also looks to save where it can. The G's engineering may be questioned by many, but it still has a good frame and the company has stockpiled a lot of parts.

 

[rickycourtney]

Money talks. As Dave Leach has said - buying a new coach costs 400-500k. Refurbing a coach to buy 5-7 more years costs $50-125k. First Group is willing to spend money, but also looks to save where it can. The G's engineering may be questioned by many, but it still has a good frame and the company has stockpiled a lot of parts.

Right and I totally get that. But the point is... how deep is the refurbishment on the G4500? If it's as simple as a new coat of paint, some time in the shop maintaining the engine, new seat covers, power outlets, WiFi and through cleaning... that's probably $50,000 and buys you 5 more years in service. In my opinion that's a very worthy investment in terms of money and corporate image. Doing a total refurbishment like the 102DL3's got (at $120,000 per bus) probably wouldn't be worth it.
Also it appears that for the moment, Greyhound has stopped buying new buses, at least in mass quantities. There have been no press releases from Greyhound, MCI, Prevost and nothing in "the trades." I'm thinking the company has probably hit a nice mark where they have all the buses they need.

Now it's time to focus on the other side of the customer experience... implementing eTicketing and hopefully coming up with a way to track real-time arrivals and departures.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here's my take on the overbooking:

1. Connecting carriers still overbook.

2. Casino services still overbook.

3. Amtrak Thruway still overbooks.

4. "Pure" Greyhound, no longer overbooks.

5. Greyhound, again, doesn't make releases because there's too many little things that still have overbooking.

Look at Greyhound's New York-Atlantic City service, it has no Greyhound Express, even though routes around it are teeming with Greyhound Express. Just makes my point.

Now look at Sacramento-Portland, which was recently extended to become Los Angeles-Vancouver, but that segment is still the most popular. Every time I have seen the Sacramento-Portland, it was packed to the gills, literally, because in those D4505 buses, the main passenger air vents are along the window bar. Last time I saw that bus, the passengers lined up from the bus gate across the entire Sacramento terminal to the front entrance. But every single person got on the 50-seater D4505. And for more backing, the route has yield management, and has repeatedly shown "SOLD OUT" on the website.

So I'm saying at least Sacramento-Portland does not overbook. Reno-SLC-Denver does not overbook. Detroit-Nashville-Dallas does not overbook. Seem what I'm talking about?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

As for the bad reputation, you're not understanding my point. You said the passengers were bad, but where did all the good passengers go in the 1980's? Yes, low-cost airlines. But low-cost airlines are still around, and their ridership is stuck while Greyhound is expanding. I do insist that one of Greyhound's biggest ridership-losing mistakes was lower wages resulting in strikes, and getting rid of most 102A3's. The 102A3 was and still is noticeably more comfortable than 96-inch buses. A Wide Ace with a good driver could have kept passengers riding Greyhound that had always liked riding Greyhound. But no, they had 925 102A3's and more on order, but sold most of them and cancelled the orders when Greyhound went bankrupt due to strikes and debt, then after emerging Greyhound went back to 96-inch "Dirty Dogs", the MC-12, which was liked by drivers but hated by passengers. The "Dirty Dog" was the MC-12 originally, then the G4500.

Greyhound should have ordered a 102-inch MC-12, which was exactly the 102A3 later 102B3, same structure, same interior, same HVAC, same powertrain, just wider and a different dashboard. Strip it down for lower prices, and Greyhound should have raised the wages after paying back the debt.

Again, Greyhound's diversification under Trautman throughout the 1970's didn't help either.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Last thing, about the G4500's, yeah it sucked, and it sucked hard, and it was indeed fiberglass JUNK, but you have to remember, the G4500 has the same structure as the J4500. The J4500, incidentally, has been the best-selling coach in North America since 2004. And the engine is the same Detroit Diesel 60-R or 60-P as in the DL3, except for #7229-7244, which have the Caterpillar C12.

As for what Greyhound did with it, I don't know. But the drivers like it a lot more and the passengers definitely like it a lot more. Exactly what they did with it, doesn't really matter that much, even though Josh Harris still hates it, well the J4500 has a lot of haters too, but they still sell in huge numbers, nearly 10,000 units sold now.

And lastly, the G4500 has the same or even more luggage capacity as the H3-45, cargo hold for both is 440 cubic feet, and the parcel racks sure hang down more in the G than the H, that's right, the H3-45, tallest single-decker bus on the road, has pretty much the same "on paper" stats as the G4500. That might have been why Greyhound bought the G in the first place, they though it was a H3-45 costing 30% less, or about $180,000 less. And the J still costs about $100,000 less than the H, according to a charter bus operator on GTE, Eric Gregory.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Oh, you've got to be kidding me! Sacramento-Portland: tonight's 1440 only has 3 seats left and they'll probably be filled by last-minute tickets bought at the station. Tomorrow, 1420 already SOLD OUT, 1446 already SOLD OUT, 1436 for tomorrow evening has only 5 tickets left. Basically all Sacramento-Portland runs for the next 24 hours are either sold out or almost sold out. Yeah, Greyhound needs more buses on that route, ASAP.

By the way, Los Angeles-Sacramento is also doing well, but not as well as Sacramento-Portland. Again, Portland-Seattle-Vancouver is doing poorly. So the whole Los Angeles-Vancouver long-haul corridor isn't doing bad except for north of Portland.

Edit: Now that I think about it, tomorrow morning's 1446 departs Sacramento at 8:00 AM after running from Los Angeles. Now the LAD-SAC segment is not sold out, but SAC-PUT for that run is sold out at least 14 hours in advance. So Greyhound has probably already planned an extra section for that route just to handle the loads, because it would be a big waste to lose out on a bus sold out 14 hours in advance, given some Greyhound riders would still "buy and go".

 

[rickycourtney]

Now look at Sacramento-Portland, which was recently extended to become Los Angeles-Vancouver, but that segment is still the most popular.

Makes since. That route has little duplication and little competition. There's plenty of ways to get between LA, Sacramento, Portland, Seattle and Vancouver... but for the small towns between Sacramento and Portland... Greyhound is the only real choice.

Every time I have seen the Sacramento-Portland, it was packed to the gills, literally, because in those D4505 buses, the main passenger air vents are along the window bar.

I have no idea what the D4505 having air vents along the window bar has to do with anything.

Last time I saw that bus, the passengers lined up from the bus gate across the entire Sacramento terminal to the front entrance. But every single person got on the 50-seater D4505. And for more backing, the route has yield management, and has repeatedly shown "SOLD OUT" on the website.

So I'm saying at least Sacramento-Portland does not overbook. Reno-SLC-Denver does not overbook. Detroit-Nashville-Dallas does not overbook. Seem what I'm talking about?

I see what you're talking about... Greyhound is *moving away* from overbooking... and that's a very good thing. But it has not *killed* or *eliminated* overbooking which is what you have said previously on this forum on the thread titled "Greyhound Kills Overbooking, Expands Service, Introduces Yield Mgmt":

Here's the latest confirmed news on Greyhound:

• No more overbooking on any US schedules.

As for the bad reputation, you're not understanding my point. You said the passengers were bad, but where did all the good passengers go in the 1980's? Yes, low-cost airlines. But low-cost airlines are still around, and their ridership is stuck while Greyhound is expanding.

I don't like the term "good passengers"... they're "choice passengers" (they have a choice in how they choose to travel).

In the 1980's those "choice passengers" went to their personal automobiles and the airlines when deregulation lowered fares. I would venture to guess that most of those customers have not and will not come back.

Greyhound's increase in ridership (along with all other bus companies) comes from millennials.

Being a "millennial" myself I speak from experience here... this generation owns fewer cars than their parents and they would rather not deal with the hassle of the airports for *shorter* trips, plus flying just isn't as cheap as it used to be (I remember getting $70 round trip Southwest fares from Burbank to Oakland 8 years ago, that's gone now.) Appealing to these customers is how Greyhound (and Megabus and BoltBus) has expanded ridership.

But I expect that, aside from novelty, most millennial customers will not be interested in a long haul bus trip (LA-NY). That's why Greyhound has, until now, focused on removing stops on many routes and adding frequencies between popular city pairs.

I do insist that one of Greyhound's biggest ridership-losing mistakes was lower wages resulting in strikes, and getting rid of most 102A3's. The 102A3 was and still is noticeably more comfortable than 96-inch buses. A Wide Ace with a good driver could have kept passengers riding Greyhound that had always liked riding Greyhound. But no, they had 925 102A3's and more on order, but sold most of them and cancelled the orders when Greyhound went bankrupt due to strikes and debt, then after emerging Greyhound went back to 96-inch "Dirty Dogs", the MC-12, which was liked by drivers but hated by passengers. The "Dirty Dog" was the MC-12 originally, then the G4500.

Greyhound should have ordered a 102-inch MC-12, which was exactly the 102A3 later 102B3, same structure, same interior, same HVAC, same powertrain, just wider and a different dashboard. Strip it down for lower prices, and Greyhound should have raised the wages after paying back the debt.

You've said this before... when a passenger sees a refurbished 102DL3 they say "nice, we get a *NEW* bus today". Passengers don't realize it's a 15 year old bus because it has leather seats, power outlets, WiFi and it's clean... so they think it's new. That's the power of properly maintaining your equipment.

At the end of the day, most passengers don't care what model the bus is, who built the bus, how wide it's aisles are... they just want it to have all the features they want and they don't want it to break down on the road.

As long as Greyhound keeps all of it's buses keep well maintained (both inside and in the engine bay)... ridership will keep growing. But if they return to the "dirty dog" days of buses with stained seats and duct tape holding the baggage doors shut... all of this hard work and money will be for nothing.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm sure Greyhound has learned to know better than to buy the junk MCI has been building the past few decades.

I assume they will soon start buying Setras like a sane company.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I have some rare AM time today, and I'll just say, go to Greyhound Reno and see what passengers are riding the bus. Not the same passengers as Megabus or BoltBus. You'll see older people and children.

You seem to not have understood "D4505 with air vents along the window bar". That was just to say it was actually "packed to the gills", the "gills" being the air vents and "packed" meaning the passengers filled every single seat, aisle and window.

Yes, passengers could and did feel the difference between a 102A3 and a MC-9 or MC-12. The extra 1.5" of width per seat helps, and on longer trips, it helps a lot. Greyhound's MC-9's had extra legroom for 43 seats, which made up for it, the 102A3 and MC-12 both had 47 seats, and the MC-12 was BAD with 47 seats, the 102A3 wasn't, because it was wider. Greyhound could have quickly recovered its reputation after the Disasters, by ordering the 102A3/102B3 with 43 seats. But no, they ordered the MC-12 with 47 seats. Competition is one thing, reputation is another.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Bad news for the aftermath of the 1170 murder: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/mountie-who-witnessed-bus-beheading-dies-by-suicide-1.1918550.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I'm sure Greyhound has learned to know better than to buy the junk MCI has been building the past few decades.

I assume they will soon start buying Setras like a sane company.

Setras, I don't know if they will test them out again. That's a tough cookie to bite there, but strange things have happened. No one saw Greyhound ever buying buses from Prevost, so we couldn't rule that out. You also have to give these buses a possibility too.

http://www.temsa.com/TS45.aspx

https://www.prevostcar.com/content/volvo-9700

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Say what you want to say, you have nothing to back it up. MCI's are junk, what a GREAT joke. Euro buses with high mirrors and panoramic windshields are good, what a GREAT joke.