"Lynchburger" Beats Projections

[Joel N. Weber II]

But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!

Well, the ultimate "plan" is to have service to Bristol, whether that be this train on a different timetable, or a second frequency, perhaps Bristol to Charlottesville or Bristol to Richmond, or something along those lines. The consensus so far has been, however, that the first step was to get the train to Lynchburg. The next step (again, 3 years later) would be Roanoke, and then and only then would Bristol be considered (probably looking at 6-10 years from now). If Tennessee wants to pony up some cash to bring the train to Tennessee (I'd love to see it connect Nashville and Memphis), Amtrak will listen.

I think the right way to get new Amtrak trains to cross state lines is not to focus on state funding, but instead to focus on coming up with a collection of routes that will add service in 40+ states to try to get through Congress to get federal funding. (I might even say 48 states, but I haven't figured out what new conventional speed Amtrak service Rhode Island wants; Rhode Island mostly needs more track capacity for more commuter rail.)

However, I also suspect that a daytime train originating at NYP (should NYP be chosen as the point of origin instead of WAS) in the morning and heading south through Roanoke will find Bristol pretty close to a natural stopping point in the evening from a scheduling perspective anyway. NYP-Knoxville as a daytime train might be getting a bit long; on the other hand, it probably would have better ridership than NYP-Bristol.

The Norfolk Southern system map indicates that NS has Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis track, but no Nashville. On the one hand, it's entirely possible that not all NS track is already up to reasonable passenger standards, and it is possible that another railroad does have Nashville track in good condition; on the other hand, NS seems to be a lot more willing to have new passenger service on its tracks than some other railroads.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!

Well, the ultimate "plan" is to have service to Bristol, whether that be this train on a different timetable, or a second frequency, perhaps Bristol to Charlottesville or Bristol to Richmond, or something along those lines. The consensus so far has been, however, that the first step was to get the train to Lynchburg. The next step (again, 3 years later) would be Roanoke, and then and only then would Bristol be considered (probably looking at 6-10 years from now). If Tennessee wants to pony up some cash to bring the train to Tennessee (I'd love to see it connect Nashville and Memphis), Amtrak will listen.

I think the right way to get new Amtrak trains to cross state lines is not to focus on state funding, but instead to focus on coming up with a collection of routes that will add service in 40+ states to try to get through Congress to get federal funding. (I might even say 48 states, but I haven't figured out what new conventional speed Amtrak service Rhode Island wants; Rhode Island mostly needs more track capacity for more commuter rail.)

However, I also suspect that a daytime train originating at NYP (should NYP be chosen as the point of origin instead of WAS) in the morning and heading south through Roanoke will find Bristol pretty close to a natural stopping point in the evening from a scheduling perspective anyway. NYP-Knoxville as a daytime train might be getting a bit long; on the other hand, it probably would have better ridership than NYP-Bristol.

The Norfolk Southern system map indicates that NS has Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis track, but no Nashville. On the one hand, it's entirely possible that not all NS track is already up to reasonable passenger standards, and it is possible that another railroad does have Nashville track in good condition; on the other hand, NS seems to be a lot more willing to have new passenger service on its tracks than some other railroads.

The former Southern RR (now NS) never did have any service at all to or in Nashville Southern did go Knoxville,Chattanooga,Huntsville, Memphis.

The Tennessee Central, a small road long gone at least by that name, had service from Knoxville to Nashville. (skipping Chattanooga)

The service from Nashville to Memphis was on what would now be CSX if still operating. In the railroad past it was the Louisville and Nashville RR(and before that, the Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis RR)

For many years there was a through overnight sleeper from Bristol to Nashville on Southern RR "Tennessean". That train went from Washington to Memphis, with through pullman from NYC to Memphis.

But that sleeper was put on in Bristol. In Chattanooga it was switched to another train on another railroad out of the other station. It as put on an L&N train to go on to Nashville.

Thus, the Tenneseean was fudamentally a train to Chattanooga and Memphis, but it did have that one through sleeper from Bristol to Nashville switched to L&N every night in Chattanooga.

Before my time it might have come all the way from Washington or even NYC rather than just from Bristol, I am not sure.

 

[acelafan]

The success on the Lynchburg NE Regional continues...136% above projected ridership for November. Will these results continue?

News article link

RICHMOND — Lynchburg’s honeymoon with Amtrak continued in November, producing enough riders on the new train that started in October to generate a profit in its second month of operation. 

Virginia had planned to provide a $242,000 monthly subsidy to keep the train running. It won’t need any of that money for November.

 

The month’s results for the new train between Lynchburg and Washington were stronger than October’s ridership, according to Virginia’s Department of Rail and Public Transportation.

 

[rrdude]

Boy, it's amazing what a little nugget of "good news" does for Amtrak, at least in my feeble mind.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Have they considered adding a second frequency yet?

 

[Rafi]

Have they considered adding a second frequency yet?

That's not the next step, as far as I'm aware. After all, there are already two frequencies each day LYH-NYP and three a day on Sun, Wed, Fri between CVS and NYP (counting the Cardinal). The next step would be an extension to Roanoke. Beyond that, it's up to the state as to what they want to do. Ideas that have been floated by Virginia proponents of rail (elected, non-profit, private, etc) are:

-Extend to Bristol

-Extend LYH-Richmond

-Extend CVS-Richmond

...or any combination thereof.

This is all conjecture at this point. Technically speaking, the service is in a trial phase right now. If Virginia likes what it sees, then they have the option to continue the existing service and possibly extend service to Roanoke.

Rafi

 

[jis]

Maybe they should start by filling in the remaining four days with a short turn train on the Cardinal schedule to CVS, sort of similar to what happens at the other end of the Card with Hoosier State. That should be a relatively low cost filler thing to make service more predictable daily one on that additional frequency.

 

[Palmland]

Have they considered adding a second frequency yet?

That's not the next step, as far as I'm aware. After all, there are already two frequencies each day LYH-NYP and three a day on Sun, Wed, Fri between CVS and NYP (counting the Cardinal). The next step would be an extension to Roanoke. Beyond that, it's up to the state as to what they want to do. Ideas that have been floated by Virginia proponents of rail (elected, non-profit, private, etc) are:

-Extend to Bristol

-Extend LYH-Richmond

-Extend CVS-Richmond

...or any combination thereof.

This is all conjecture at this point. Technically speaking, the service is in a trial phase right now. If Virginia likes what it sees, then they have the option to continue the existing service and possibly extend service to Roanoke.

Rafi

It's nice to see that two adjoining states, NC and VA, are developing good intra-state passenger rail programs. But isn't this where a national system really makes sense - to promote interstate passenger rail between states that might not otherwise work together.

It would seem that a daylight train between Washington and Charlotte via Charlottesville, Lynchburg, and Greensboro would be on someone's radar screen. Rather than working separately with each state, Amtrak should help develop service between two or more neighboring states through the states' passenger rail programs. With coordination from Amtrak's national level, the states could do a better job than Amtrak (more cost effective, better local marketing, minimal studies/more action) of progressing the cause of regional service. They just need someone to make them sit at the same table.

 

[SouthernServesTheSouth]

What will happen with the ridership numbers when the special fares end shortly? Will people stop riding when the discount is removed?

 

[Michael061282]

Have they considered adding a second frequency yet?

That's not the next step, as far as I'm aware. After all, there are already two frequencies each day LYH-NYP and three a day on Sun, Wed, Fri between CVS and NYP (counting the Cardinal). The next step would be an extension to Roanoke. Beyond that, it's up to the state as to what they want to do. Ideas that have been floated by Virginia proponents of rail (elected, non-profit, private, etc) are:

-Extend to Bristol

-Extend LYH-Richmond

-Extend CVS-Richmond

...or any combination thereof.

This is all conjecture at this point. Technically speaking, the service is in a trial phase right now. If Virginia likes what it sees, then they have the option to continue the existing service and possibly extend service to Roanoke.

Rafi

It's nice to see that two adjoining states, NC and VA, are developing good intra-state passenger rail programs. But isn't this where a national system really makes sense - to promote interstate passenger rail between states that might not otherwise work together.

It would seem that a daylight train between Washington and Charlotte via Charlottesville, Lynchburg, and Greensboro would be on someone's radar screen. Rather than working separately with each state, Amtrak should help develop service between two or more neighboring states through the states' passenger rail programs. With coordination from Amtrak's national level, the states could do a better job than Amtrak (more cost effective, better local marketing, minimal studies/more action) of progressing the cause of regional service. They just need someone to make them sit at the same table.

Living in Richmond, what I'd like to know is when is the new RVR-DC-NYP service that was supposed to start in December going to begin

 

[Rafi]

Living in Richmond, what I'd like to know is when is the new RVR-DC-NYP service that was supposed to start in December going to begin

Just to be clear, this will not be a new service as much as it will be a new frequency. Last I heard, August is being targeted, but as we've seen, dates can slip.

Rafi

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Maybe they should start by filling in the remaining four days with a short turn train on the Cardinal schedule to CVS, sort of similar to what happens at the other end of the Card with Hoosier State. That should be a relatively low cost filler thing to make service more predictable daily one on that additional frequency.

But I thought the theory was that the Hoosier State was scheduled primarily for the benefit of non-revenue equipment moves between Beach Grove and Chicago. There's no maintenance shop near CVS that I'm aware of...

I also think they should just make the Cardinal daily. It probably only requires one more set (assuming the set that arrives in CHI in the morning can turn around and go back out that evening), and a daily Cardinal with two coaches per set could carry more coach passengers per week than a three day a week Cardinal with three coaches per set, so in some sense they don't strictly speaking need any more coaches; the two existing sets could each give a coach to the new third set. They just need one of those P40s refurbished with the stimulus money, and a refurbished prototype Viewliner Sleeper, and they need one of the food service cars refurbished with the stimulus money to somehow displace a Diner Lite elsewhere in the system that can be made available to the Cardinal, assuming that there aren't any Diner Lites coming out of the stimulus repairs.

What fraction of the equipment being brought back into service by the stimulus money is actually in service at the moment?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

That's not the next step, as far as I'm aware. After all, there are already two frequencies each day LYH-NYP and three a day on Sun, Wed, Fri between CVS and NYP (counting the Cardinal). The next step would be an extension to Roanoke. Beyond that, it's up to the state as to what they want to do. Ideas that have been floated by Virginia proponents of rail (elected, non-profit, private, etc) are:-Extend to Bristol

-Extend LYH-Richmond

-Extend CVS-Richmond

...or any combination thereof.

This is all conjecture at this point. Technically speaking, the service is in a trial phase right now. If Virginia likes what it sees, then they have the option to continue the existing service and possibly extend service to Roanoke.

I thought it was the case that there had been essentially no formal negotiation of either Roanoke service or any of the other options, and that the main advantage Roanoke has over the other options is that it more clearly does not need additional rolling stock, and the railroad is already in good shape and has some maintenance infrastructure in Roanoke already, such that it is not clear that much physical construction would be necessary other than platforms. But it seems to me that Virginia and Amtrak haven't really negotiated anything that formally commits them to prefer Roanoke over the other options if they were to become focused on other options. (And even if they had signed a contract, couldn't they back out of it if for some reason they came to a mutual agreement to change the plan?)

Is Norfolk service in the picture at all? (I seem to recall that it would require some substantial track upgrades, and a station.)

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But I thought the theory was that the Hoosier State was scheduled primarily for the benefit of non-revenue equipment moves between Beach Grove and Chicago. There's no maintenance shop near CVS that I'm aware of...

It is scheduled for the benefit of Indianapolis residents going to Chicago and vice versa. Its a long-distance commuter train, from what I understand. Indiana pays for it, in anycase.

 

[Rafi]

I thought it was the case that there had been essentially no formal negotiation of either Roanoke service or any of the other options, and that the main advantage Roanoke has over the other options is that it more clearly does not need additional rolling stock, and the railroad is already in good shape and has some maintenance infrastructure in Roanoke already, such that it is not clear that much physical construction would be necessary other than platforms. But it seems to me that Virginia and Amtrak haven't really negotiated anything that formally commits them to prefer Roanoke over the other options if they were to become focused on other options. (And even if they had signed a contract, couldn't they back out of it if for some reason they came to a mutual agreement to change the plan?)
Is Norfolk service in the picture at all? (I seem to recall that it would require some substantial track upgrades, and a station.)

I haven't seen the actual contract, Joel, so I can't comment on whether Roanoke is actually mentioned by name. But if Virginia were to ignore Roanoke as an extension option, there would be a lot of taps on the shoulder, as it were, from both Amtrak and other entities. From what I hear, though, Virginia knows Roanoke is the next logical stop for that train.

Norfolk is in the picture, but as part of a completely different project right now--the high speed rail project from DC to Richmond to Petersburg to downtown Norfolk.

Rafi

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Norfolk is in the picture, but as part of a completely different project right now--the high speed rail project from DC to Richmond to Petersburg to downtown Norfolk.

Is that high speed like Ohio's 79 MPH service, or high speed like the 250 MPH the Californians are pursuing?

I'm wondering if building a new 250 MPH alignment to replace most of the existing 44 miles from Ashland to Fredericksburg would make sense. It's 44 minutes now; depending on exactly how fast the train accelerates and decelerates, how much of the existing alignment was kept at the edges of the cities, and whether the new alignment were to reduce the number of miles, that might save close to a half hour of travel time over the current schedule. It would be interesting to know how much a new 250 MPH alignment to replace those 44 miles would cost compared to the cost of the Big Dig.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

I'm wondering if building a new 250 MPH alignment to replace most of the existing 44 miles from Ashland to Fredericksburg would make sense.

Not gonna go into the HSR deal at the moment, but good to see you posting again, Joel. You were missed for awhile.

 

[MattW]

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975

[EDIT]: I should also note that I did not take this picture, I just ran across it on Railpictures.net

 

[rrdude]

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975

I'm very confused. What could they possibly be researching with a gon and and old heavyweight?

Nice pix btw.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975

I'm very confused. What could they possibly be researching with a gon and and old heavyweight?

Nice pix btw.

Yeah, that's pretty interesting. Two KCS locomotives, a gon and the research car. It could be some kind of testing track for passenger trains, but it could also involve testing the locomotives or maybe the gon. We'll have to see what develops.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975

I'm very confused. What could they possibly be researching with a gon and and old heavyweight?

Nice pix btw.

The heavyweight is probably a business car. If only we could see the rear it probably has an open platform observation which was common for business cars. The last two windows look large, such as would have been typical of a lounge.

That would be relatively common type of car to use for an inspection run. In fact, I guess it may be the only car used for such service, unless perhaps a caboose. Probably has food and beds inside.

 

[wayman]

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975

I'm very confused. What could they possibly be researching with a gon and and old heavyweight?

Nice pix btw.

The freight car may be fitted out with track telemetry equipment of some sort. Though I'm not sure why they'd use an open-top car for that instead of a box car. So perhaps it's just there to provide extra weight for the train, or a buffer to reduce the engine noise in the business car by a bit.

 

[rrdude]

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975

I'm very confused. What could they possibly be researching with a gon and and old heavyweight?

Nice pix btw.

The freight car may be fitted out with track telemetry equipment of some sort. Though I'm not sure why they'd use an open-top car for that instead of a box car. So perhaps it's just there to provide extra weight for the train, or a buffer to reduce the engine noise in the business car by a bit.

I've never seen a gon doing duty as a Track Geometry Car B4, but your "buffer" idea has merit. I'd really like to know why these KCS de MEXICO, engines, and this weird consist was rolling 'tween Roanoke and Lynchburg.

 

[Rafi]

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975
[EDIT]: I should also note that I did not take this picture, I just ran across it on Railpictures.net

As a followup, here's a story off of Trains' newswire today that I believe explains the sighting:

NORFOLK, Va. — Kansas City Southern SD22ECO locomotives are on their way to Norfolk Southern's Roanoke, Va., terminal to undergo operational testing. NS Assistant Vice President Mechanical Don Graab told TRAINS News Wire the diesels will be tested for possible use in mother-slug sets.
Electro-Motive Diesel introduced its SD22ECO and GP22ECO models in 2008. They use older-model EMD diesel bodies, but employ new engines that meet Environmental Protection Agency Tier-2 standards. KCS rosters 27 units of the two models.

Graab said the borrowed KCS units will undergo tractive effort tests at the Roanoke terminal.

GP22ECOs use EMD 710 8-cylinder prime movers and produce 2,150 hp.

Rafi

 

[acelafan]

Here is a short recap about the tremendous success of Amtrak's NE Regional Service to Lynchburg in its first full fiscal year....it's encouraging to see news like this!

(Courtesy of Progressive Railroading Daily News)

"During fiscal-year 2010, which ended Sept. 30, the Lynchburg train carried 126,072 passengers, exceeding its goal of 51,000 riders by 147.2 percent. The service also generated $6.33 million in revenue, well surpassing its $2.58 million goal."

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/prdailynews/news.asp?id=25090

Way to go, Lynchburger!