jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
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Toledo is by far the bigger station between those two.
New train (40-41 Floridian) between Miami and Chicago via Washington DC
- Thread starter danlb_2000
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I am a 3rd generation Floridian and ime folks from the Cleveland area tend to go to two places in Florida, the snowbirds tend to either go to the Tampa area or the Southeastern Florida counties of Palm Beach and Broward and younger families either go to Orland for theme parks or to visit the Grandparents in the Tampa area of the Southeastern Florida counties I listed.
I have never met folks from Toledo so I cannot speak them.
I logged on to Amtrak and attempted to look for tickets from Alexandria to a place on this route west of WAS, and surely enough, the system did not give me the direct option - instead, the only options it gave me all involved connecting trains.
I'm not entirely sure what the thinking is behind this idea of retaining ALX as a discharge-only stop on the northbound/westbound train, but if local traffic concerns were really an issue, what I would have done instead is prohibit local traffic between ALX and WAS (similar to how local traffic had been prohibited between Poughkeepsie, Croton-Harmon, and Yonkers in the past).
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
A change such as making Alexandria a stop where people can board for Chicago must be changed in the computer in a separate step. If I understand correctly, each possible city pair on a route and possible city pair involving connections must be separately programmed into Amtrak's computer. Thus, it is easy to understand how someone might miss the step involving Alexandria. It is quite possible that the person programming the computer does not have the geographical knowledge to understand the need for this change.
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Thank you so much for the new Floridian timetable. Before this, I couldn't get it to come up, fairly typical for me and the Amtrak Web site.
Hello to all. I have been away and inactive from the forum for several months now. When someone has time, could someone advise and recap the suspected consist of 40/41. I know it is a Viewliner (which is fabulous in my opinion since I loved the CAP when it was single level year ago). A simple reply will be appreciated.
Septa9739
Lead Service Attendant
As far as I know:
2 Diesel locomotives (ALC-42 or P42)
4 Amfleet II coaches
1 Amfleet II cafe
1 Viewliner II Diner
2 Viewliner Sleepers
1 Viewliner II Baggage
2 Diesel locomotives (ALC-42 or P42)
4 Amfleet II coaches
1 Amfleet II cafe
1 Viewliner II Diner
2 Viewliner Sleepers
1 Viewliner II Baggage
What about if you purchase (say) dinner and then the train runs too late for you to get dinner?
In that case they could send you a refund for the value of the missed meal, or at last a credit…
This is already a consideration for sleeping car passengers when the train runs late. When that happens to them, they get refunds to cover the cost of dinner. I suspect that could work for coach passengers too. (Personally, I would prefer returning to the old system of just having everyone who wants dinner pay for it when they eat, as in a restaurant, but I suspect that's never going to happen.)
May I offer at least a basically positive view of Amtrak's decision to create the FLORIDIAN.
The article below offers a balanced view of the real/primary reason for the pending consolidation of the CAPITOL LIMITED and the SILVER STAR as the renamed FLORIDIAN--eg. the need to reassign the CAPs fleet of Superliner cars to relieve the almost desperate shortage of bi-level equipment on the western trains. The East River Tunnel project sighted by Amtrak as a cause is real too, and is impacting multiple services--with particularly bad impacts on the ADIRONDACK and MAPLE LEAF trains.
But although Amtrak has not acknowledged it, the need to reassign the Superliners is, I firmly believe, the primary cause for the FLORIDIAN decision. And honestly I think it was the right call overall, although flawed by a lack of capacity on the new train north/west of DC to Chicago.
The biggest problem in my view with the FLORIDIAN is not the lengthy route. Passengers will have all the options they had before from/to all stops on both former routes (except New York to DC, which will require a train change)--plus the through service makes the somewhat close connections between the SILVER STAR and the CAP certain, by the thru running of the entire train with no need to change. This is a real advantage that must be acknowledged.
In the better than 30 years I sold Amtrak travel at my specialty rail tour and travel company, Rail Travel Center, the two most requested routes that were no longer offered were Denver to Dallas and even more often, Chicago to Florida. Of course routing this train through Nashville and Atlanta would be ideal, (and that is actually in the list of FRA potential new long haul routes), but it years and billions of dollars away now. Not even station platforms remain at most points north of Jacksonville to at least Indianapolis on that corridor.
Extending the CAP to join the SILVER STAR retains both previous routes while opening up, for those who want it, a new option thru from the Midwest/Great Lakes region to Florida. Shades of the New York Central, Southern Ry, Florida East Coast Line's winter-only "New Royal Palm" in the early 1950s.
Anyone who books this service will fully understand it is--like the CZ or the EMPIRE BUILDER--a two-day trip. No one who takes a long haul train is basically in a hurry. This is a creative and positive decision by Amtrak, except for the reality that the FLORIDIAN has too few cars to serve the demand already extent on both the STAR and the CAP.
This problem is the dramatic reduction in First Class sleeper capacity between DC and Chicago. The two Superliners on the CAP offered 10 Bedrooms and 26 Roomettes daily, plus 2 Family and 2 Handicapped Bedrooms. The two Viewliner sleepers on the FLORDIAN cut the Bedroom offer to 4 rooms, with no Family Bedrooms and still 2 Handicapped Bedrooms. The Roomette capacity on the FLORIDIAN depends on whether a first generation Viewliner I or a more recent Viewliner II car is assigned. They offer slightly different room numbers. First generation cars have 12 Roomettes, while the Viewliner II cars surrender a roomette to allow for a large added public toilet. Because Amtrak's diner, lounge and car attendants must use roomettes to sleep (and no longer are required to share) 5-6 Roomettes will likely be unavailable for sale. It is thus likely that the new train will offer only 16-17 Roomettes. This problem already existed on the SILVER STAR, but the DC--Chicago CAP had much more sleeper space and it was almost always sold out.
There has been much outcry about this capacity loss, and it is well justified, but little discussion of relatively easy fixes that Amtrak can apply to moderate the impact of the FLORIDIAN reducing current capacity--particularly on the DC-Chicago segment of this route. The obvious solution is to add at least one and ideally two more sleepers to the new FLORIDIAN. This can not happen instantly, but should proceed incrementally, as explained below. Experience may also suggest adding another coach as well.
This fall Amtrak is finally turning to the long-needed renovation of the first generation Viewliner I sleepers. Short-term this has caused a reduction of one sleeper per trip on the CRESCENT. In the past the SILVER STAR also carried 3 sleepers, but currently Amtrak has insufficient serviceable Viewliner sleepers to restore that either. But completing the Viewliner I renovations should provide the cars needed.
These renovations will take time, but they will finally be underway in Amtrak's FY25, which began yesterday, October 1.
Amtrak's fleet of Viewliner sleepers originally included 50 Viewliner I cars and 25 of the second generation Viewliner II sleepers--a total of 75 cars. While a few cars are out of service (possibly permanently) due to wrecks), fewer than 40 cars are used routinely every day now. As the Viewliner I renovations progress Amtrak should have more than enough eastern sleepers to restore the lost car on the CRESCENT and add back capacity on the FLORIDIAN.
What all this truly documents is the folly of Amtrak's actions during the pandemic era in parking without proper routine maintenance so much of its fleet and in reducing the work-force at the main shops system-wide. Now the company finds it hard to replace these workers. But that does not mean the decision to reassign the CAP's Superliners to the western routes was a mistake. It was necessary to get trains like the SOUTHEWEST CHIEF and the CZ back to even close to their pre-COVID capacity. Those routes are the National Network's revenue champions.
The FLORIDIAN capacity situation is fixable if Amtrak properly prioritizes the Viewliner renovations. And the leg-rest Amfleet II coaches in use on the regional trains like the ADIRONDACK and MAPLE LEAF will need to return to the overnight fleet as new Siemens' cars arrive for the eastern regional and NEC routes.
One last concern must also be addressed. Amtrak needs to closely monitor the impact of the loss of direct, no change ridership on the Florida routes caused by going to only one train--the SILVER METEOR--offering thru service from points New York to Baltimore to the "Silver Service" cities DC and south. At a minimum the SILVER METEOR will need ASAP more capacity.
Longer-term Amtrak should look to the example of the pre-Amtrak Seaboard Airline/Seaboard Coast Line, with their version of the SILVER STAR. They offered thru coaches and sleepers year-round from New York, but except between December and April (the Florida "Peak season"), only a few cars ran thru to New York north of DC, and they were carried on a regular corridor service train. In the Florida peak there was a fully dedicated SILVER STAR all the way to New York. If the northbound train was too late to make its intended DC connection the thru cars were often run as an "extra", or more generally placed on the next corridor DC/New York service. Amtrak could follow this approach if it really fully utilizes the renovated Viewliner fleet later in 2025.
https://clevelandmagazine.com/in-th...nd-to-orlando-train-overshadows-car-shortages
The article below offers a balanced view of the real/primary reason for the pending consolidation of the CAPITOL LIMITED and the SILVER STAR as the renamed FLORIDIAN--eg. the need to reassign the CAPs fleet of Superliner cars to relieve the almost desperate shortage of bi-level equipment on the western trains. The East River Tunnel project sighted by Amtrak as a cause is real too, and is impacting multiple services--with particularly bad impacts on the ADIRONDACK and MAPLE LEAF trains.
But although Amtrak has not acknowledged it, the need to reassign the Superliners is, I firmly believe, the primary cause for the FLORIDIAN decision. And honestly I think it was the right call overall, although flawed by a lack of capacity on the new train north/west of DC to Chicago.
The biggest problem in my view with the FLORIDIAN is not the lengthy route. Passengers will have all the options they had before from/to all stops on both former routes (except New York to DC, which will require a train change)--plus the through service makes the somewhat close connections between the SILVER STAR and the CAP certain, by the thru running of the entire train with no need to change. This is a real advantage that must be acknowledged.
In the better than 30 years I sold Amtrak travel at my specialty rail tour and travel company, Rail Travel Center, the two most requested routes that were no longer offered were Denver to Dallas and even more often, Chicago to Florida. Of course routing this train through Nashville and Atlanta would be ideal, (and that is actually in the list of FRA potential new long haul routes), but it years and billions of dollars away now. Not even station platforms remain at most points north of Jacksonville to at least Indianapolis on that corridor.
Extending the CAP to join the SILVER STAR retains both previous routes while opening up, for those who want it, a new option thru from the Midwest/Great Lakes region to Florida. Shades of the New York Central, Southern Ry, Florida East Coast Line's winter-only "New Royal Palm" in the early 1950s.
Anyone who books this service will fully understand it is--like the CZ or the EMPIRE BUILDER--a two-day trip. No one who takes a long haul train is basically in a hurry. This is a creative and positive decision by Amtrak, except for the reality that the FLORIDIAN has too few cars to serve the demand already extent on both the STAR and the CAP.
This problem is the dramatic reduction in First Class sleeper capacity between DC and Chicago. The two Superliners on the CAP offered 10 Bedrooms and 26 Roomettes daily, plus 2 Family and 2 Handicapped Bedrooms. The two Viewliner sleepers on the FLORDIAN cut the Bedroom offer to 4 rooms, with no Family Bedrooms and still 2 Handicapped Bedrooms. The Roomette capacity on the FLORIDIAN depends on whether a first generation Viewliner I or a more recent Viewliner II car is assigned. They offer slightly different room numbers. First generation cars have 12 Roomettes, while the Viewliner II cars surrender a roomette to allow for a large added public toilet. Because Amtrak's diner, lounge and car attendants must use roomettes to sleep (and no longer are required to share) 5-6 Roomettes will likely be unavailable for sale. It is thus likely that the new train will offer only 16-17 Roomettes. This problem already existed on the SILVER STAR, but the DC--Chicago CAP had much more sleeper space and it was almost always sold out.
There has been much outcry about this capacity loss, and it is well justified, but little discussion of relatively easy fixes that Amtrak can apply to moderate the impact of the FLORIDIAN reducing current capacity--particularly on the DC-Chicago segment of this route. The obvious solution is to add at least one and ideally two more sleepers to the new FLORIDIAN. This can not happen instantly, but should proceed incrementally, as explained below. Experience may also suggest adding another coach as well.
This fall Amtrak is finally turning to the long-needed renovation of the first generation Viewliner I sleepers. Short-term this has caused a reduction of one sleeper per trip on the CRESCENT. In the past the SILVER STAR also carried 3 sleepers, but currently Amtrak has insufficient serviceable Viewliner sleepers to restore that either. But completing the Viewliner I renovations should provide the cars needed.
These renovations will take time, but they will finally be underway in Amtrak's FY25, which began yesterday, October 1.
Amtrak's fleet of Viewliner sleepers originally included 50 Viewliner I cars and 25 of the second generation Viewliner II sleepers--a total of 75 cars. While a few cars are out of service (possibly permanently) due to wrecks), fewer than 40 cars are used routinely every day now. As the Viewliner I renovations progress Amtrak should have more than enough eastern sleepers to restore the lost car on the CRESCENT and add back capacity on the FLORIDIAN.
What all this truly documents is the folly of Amtrak's actions during the pandemic era in parking without proper routine maintenance so much of its fleet and in reducing the work-force at the main shops system-wide. Now the company finds it hard to replace these workers. But that does not mean the decision to reassign the CAP's Superliners to the western routes was a mistake. It was necessary to get trains like the SOUTHEWEST CHIEF and the CZ back to even close to their pre-COVID capacity. Those routes are the National Network's revenue champions.
The FLORIDIAN capacity situation is fixable if Amtrak properly prioritizes the Viewliner renovations. And the leg-rest Amfleet II coaches in use on the regional trains like the ADIRONDACK and MAPLE LEAF will need to return to the overnight fleet as new Siemens' cars arrive for the eastern regional and NEC routes.
One last concern must also be addressed. Amtrak needs to closely monitor the impact of the loss of direct, no change ridership on the Florida routes caused by going to only one train--the SILVER METEOR--offering thru service from points New York to Baltimore to the "Silver Service" cities DC and south. At a minimum the SILVER METEOR will need ASAP more capacity.
Longer-term Amtrak should look to the example of the pre-Amtrak Seaboard Airline/Seaboard Coast Line, with their version of the SILVER STAR. They offered thru coaches and sleepers year-round from New York, but except between December and April (the Florida "Peak season"), only a few cars ran thru to New York north of DC, and they were carried on a regular corridor service train. In the Florida peak there was a fully dedicated SILVER STAR all the way to New York. If the northbound train was too late to make its intended DC connection the thru cars were often run as an "extra", or more generally placed on the next corridor DC/New York service. Amtrak could follow this approach if it really fully utilizes the renovated Viewliner fleet later in 2025.
https://clevelandmagazine.com/in-th...nd-to-orlando-train-overshadows-car-shortages
When would there ever be a situation where a late train means they can't have dinner? If they're late, doesn't that make for more time for dinner?
Meal service is by time, not location. If boarding after about 8:30-9:00 sleeping car passengers will not get that dinner regardless of the scheduled time at their boarding station. They may get another meal on the other end. Although it may be Dinty Moore stew over rice (or KFC, or Subway).
Whoops I forgot that people get on trains, not just off.
When does this ever happen?
Passengers don't get reimbursed specifically for missed meals. You can get compensation for really late trains from Customer Relations, though you usually have to ask for it these days. It can involve partial refund of the accommodation charge, which could be interpreted as compensation for the missed meals.
I think they should shift the Lakeland/Tampa operaton to the Silver Meteor. The two hours saved should be added to dwell time in DC for recovering lateness.
toddinde
OBS Chief
I agree with you. The old system was better. But I know they went to this system to cut costs. Inventory is easier and the number of diners more predictable.
The food service cost center also gets an automatic cut of the sleeper fare, giving it much needed revenue, whether passengers eat the meals or not. My understanding is supporting dining car revenue was a big part of the decision to include meals in the sleeper fares. Prior to that, many if not most sleeper passengers did not eat three meals a day in the diner, I know I didn't.
BTW, I purposely used "include meals in the sleeper fares" rather than "complimentary". I was around when they did it in the mid-1980s and the accommodations charges went up by almost precisely the cost of meals for two for the meals served on the ticketed segment.
The chargeback from the premium fares to the food service is huge. I took a business class ride to New Haven 3 years ago. I got my "free" coffee. The procedure was like buying a mattress. Show your e-ticket, your ID, sign the receipt. The receipt showed it costing $5. Retail was $2.50 or $3 at the time. So I assume the business car line sends $5 to the food service department for what costs them probably around 50 cents.
It was an AGR trip on a weekday. Their silly yield management software had the business class seat (a 60-seat Amcoach-1) costing fewer points than a coach seat. That's another topic.
It was an AGR trip on a weekday. Their silly yield management software had the business class seat (a 60-seat Amcoach-1) costing fewer points than a coach seat. That's another topic.
I agree not running the Star to and from New York will affect more riders than might be attracted to the new thru routing. As soon as the NY tunnel project is completed, they’ll probably change it back
As for not missing the connection in Washington, I believe at some point of an extremely delayed train, they might start an on-time “makeup” train, and annul the late train when it reaches Washington, and then re accommodate any affected passengers…
There is zero chance they will keep a spare train set in DC for anything.
If they annul an inbound train from Chicago, they will annul the outbound and turn the train headed from Florida right back.
If they annul an inbound train from Chicago, they will annul the outbound and turn the train headed from Florida right back.
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west point
Engineer
Back in legacy RR days there was a big demand for west coast Florida service from the Midwest. IMO switching Meteor to serve Tampa would be a mistake.
What might be better is terminating the Palmetto at Tampa. Of course what would be even better is a connection at Lakeland for service to Ft. Myers and later south. ACL & SAL both had connections to those locations and the west coast tourist attractions + populations have just boomed since then.
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