Talgo bids to sell WI trainsets to MI

[Ryan]

The RFP says that 3 trainsets are used today.

Is it possible to run the service with 2?

What happens when a set goes down for maintenance?

Given that the RFP also states that they're looking for a uniform fleet, I'd say the WI Talgos wouldn't be suitable (unless Talgo has another similar set up their sleeve they can ship in).

 

[CHamilton]

Given that the RFP also states that they're looking for a uniform fleet, I'd say the WI Talgos wouldn't be suitable (unless Talgo has another similar set up their sleeve they can ship in).

Maybe they want to lease back one of the trainsets they just sold to Oregon. The Northwest actually has more equipment than it needs until new frequencies are added in 2017.

 

[afigg]

Given that the RFP also states that they're looking for a uniform fleet, I'd say the WI Talgos wouldn't be suitable (unless Talgo has another similar set up their sleeve they can ship in).

Maybe they want to lease back one of the trainsets they just sold to Oregon. The Northwest actually has more equipment than it needs until new frequencies are added in 2017.

I have to dig up the Trains Magazine article from several years ago on the Talgos, but as I recall, the configuration and seating capacity of the WI Talgos was different from the OR Talgos. That would create a seat sales management problem. Anyone recall how many coach and business class seats the WI Talgo consists have? The MI DOT RFP asks for a minimum of 280 coach and 30 BC seats plus 24 non-revenue cafe seats.

MI is looking to lease trainsets for the Wolverine service through the end of 2017. My initial reaction was that the Talgos would not be feasible because of the lack of a maintenance facility. But since the trainsets are only needed for around 3.5 years, I wonder if it is possible to assemble a temporary maintenance facility on unused sidetracks or facility near Pontiac end that can be used for basic day to day maintenance procedures and inspections without heavy lift or repair equipment.

 

[CHamilton]

The WI Talgos as built do not have business class seating, so some modifications would need to be made.

 

[jis]

The WI Talgos as built do not have business class seating, so some modifications would need to be made.

If the way NEC operates is any indication then the only modification needed will be a few "Business Class" decals to stick on a few doors, and voila, you got Business Class! Should not be too hard to do. (says he with tongue firmly planted in his cheek!)

 

[rickycourtney]

I have to dig up the Trains Magazine article from several years ago on the Talgos, but as I recall, the configuration and seating capacity of the WI Talgos was different from the OR Talgos. That would create a seat sales management problem. Anyone recall how many coach and business class seats the WI Talgo consists have? The MI DOT RFP asks for a minimum of 280 coach and 30 BC seats plus 24 non-revenue cafe seats.

Actually, the ODOT Talgo trainsets fit that bill much better (but not exactly). They have 242 coach seats, 46 BC seats and a dining car for non-revenue seating. A total of 288 revenue seats over 13 cars.
The Wisconsin Talgos have 397 seats over 14 cars but they have no BC cars and no dining car with non-revenue seating.

 

[WICT106]

Some more on this...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/new-unused-talgo-trains-in-milwaukee-could-find-a-new-home-b99244919z1-255101661.html

The comments at the article serve to illustrate the degree of ignorance that we in Wisconsin have been dealing with. Go there and read the comments.

 

[Lakesteed]

When will the bids be open? Anybody have any idea? They were due on the 31st of March right?

 

[neroden]

Huh. It's interesting to think about how this might play out. Michigan is only looking for a short-term stopgap until it gets its new bilevels in 2017. (I guess this lets us know the order in which the states are going to get the new bilevels: sounds like Michigan may be last.) Meanwhile, Washington and Oregon will need additional Talgos, but not until *after* 2017.

Perhaps Michigan will buy these two trainsets and run "two Talgos, one conventional" for a few years, and then sell them to Washington.

 

[MidwestRich]

From the RFP and Michigan DOT's answers to bidder questions, it appears that MDOT is seriously considering proposals for lease, purchase, and lease-purchase of cars and full train sets (i.e., the Talgos). A three-year lease of the Talgos that includes some amount of parts and maintenance will likely be among the proposals, as will proposals for leasing of cars from other suppliers. It sounds like there are more than three responding firms to the RFP, so there could be a very interesting bunch of proposals. With an open competition, MDOT seems intent on securing a good deal for the state by limiting its costs and wants to get an agreement firmed up by May. So this could move very quickly.

The backdrop to all of this includes the following:

-- MDOT is fed up with Amtrak's Chicago shop for unreliable equipment and poor turnarounds. Locomotives on the Wolverine died en route at least twice this winter, leaving hundreds of passengers stranded for hours into the wee morning. The state of equipment coming out of Amtrak Chicago is unacceptable to a good paying customer like MDOT.

-- MDOT really dislikes the Horizons and the amount that Amtrak charges for them.

-- MDOT would like to add frequencies to the Pere Marquette, Blue Water, and/or Wolverines soon. Leasing/acquiring equipment will free up some from Amtrak's shallow pool.

 

[battalion51]

I have to wonder if part of the reliability issue with locomotives on Michigan services is related to ITCS. There's a very small fleet that handle a large portion of the Michigan services. So when one or two engines have issues that are lingering its going to effect only those services. Meanwhile that same one or two engines with lingering issues would likely effect different services and/or have a second motor on the train when that issue popped up if they were in the Intercity pool.

 

[neroden]

Just to quell the locomotive discussion, this RFP is strictly for cars. It doesn't involve a request for new locomotives.

I think this may give us some hints as to how much Amtrak is asking in "capital charges" for the Horizon fleet. I think Michigan is explicitly fishing for a price which Michigan can take back to Amtrak as "competition".

It looks like the minimum bid size is designed specifically to match the Wisconsin Talgos.

The maintenance RFP is actually set up as separate from the equipment purchase RFP and may simply be an accomodation to the known preference of Talgo for doing its own maintenance.

 

[afigg]

Saw this news update on rr.net. The plot thickens. Milwaukee Sentinel-Journal: 2 high-speed train sets built for Wisconsin set to leave Milwaukee. Excerpts:

In what appears to be the final chapter of an ill-fated venture in Milwaukee, Spanish train-maker Talgo is vacating its factory on the north side of Milwaukee, and its two unused high-speed train sets may soon take to the tracks.

The Redevelopment Authority of the City of Milwaukee has received notice that Talgo will end its month-to-month lease agreement in the Century City development at N. 27th and W. Townsend streets.

Talgo is paying $29K a month to store the 2 trainsets and rent the building? No wonder they want to get the trainsets out of there.

The city will also lose the $29,000 a month Talgo paid for renting half of the 300,000 square-foot building.

Talgo officials did not immediately return requests for comment about where the trains are going and why they are ending the lease.

There has been speculation within the industry that Michigan's Department of Transportation is interested in buying the train sets for its Wolverine service between Chicago and Detroit. The agency issued a request for proposals in March for ready-to-operate trains capable of 110 mph speeds for August delivery.

Though no one has confirmed that Talgo responded to the request, public records show Talgo attended information sessions. There are no other companies with fully built, modern trains.

The J-S newspaper keeps writing that MI DOT is interested in "buying" the trainsets. The reporter seems to be stuck on this even when the RFP is quite clear that MIDOT is only seeking to lease rolling stock through the end of 2017 until the new bi-levels are all delivered. There is a difference.

 

[WICT106]

Go to the article and read through the comments. They will provide some illustration of just what pro-rail wisconsinites have been dealing with the past few years. A lot of misinformation.

 

[Steve4031]

As far as no bc, the Amtrak website handles thus change everyone Superliners are substituted during the winter. Snack carts could be used in a pinch. It is a reach to not have food service for a trip of this duration though.

 

[rickycourtney]

The J-S newspaper keeps writing that MI DOT is interested in "buying" the trainsets. The reporter seems to be stuck on this even when the RFP is quite clear that MIDOT is only seeking to lease rolling stock through the end of 2017 until the new bi-levels are all delivered. There is a difference.

There's a HUGE difference. Talgo will still need to look for a buyer for these 2 trainsets in 2017...

 

[afigg]

According to this news report, only 1 company submitted a bid to MIDOT's RFP. Yes, Talgo. Not everyone is happy about that, but the former state senator who is publicly protesting appears to not understand the RFP or the Talgos.

Tim Skubick: Lone bid on high-speed train service raises eyebrows

Excerpt:

This deal is not a good deal, he explains as he has asked the governor to restart the whole process so other companies can bid - not just Talgo, which is in line to get the job.

He complains Talgo has equipment that cannot withstand Michigans grueling winters. He contends their trains would require the rejiggering of the railroad stations that handle Amtrak trains. And another $30 million or so, not in the contract, would be needed to repair the trains.

Eh? The 2 Talgo trainsets were built for the Wisconsin route. Are the winters that much worse for Chicago to Pontiac than for Chicago to Milwaukee-Madison? What "rejiggering" of the railroad stations? If it is platform length, well, the Talgos will be used for only 3+ years, so I seriously doubt platform lengths are going to be extended just for the Talgos. If the trains have to double stop, then they will if MIDOT wants the new trainsets badly enough.
What we don't know is how much it will cost to set up a temporary or interim maintenance facility.

 

[Eric S]

Just a guess, but perhaps the $30 million is for some sort of maintenance facility.

As far as weather, Milwaukee would be a little bit colder on average than Detroit, but snowfall would be higher through the northwest Indiana/southwest Michigan snowbelt area. Can't imagine weather is really a factor here. Maybe the politician just heard that Talgos are Spanish trains, rather than built for service between CHI-MKE-MSN.

 

[afigg]

Just a guess, but perhaps the $30 million is for some sort of maintenance facility.

As far as weather, Milwaukee would be a little bit colder on average than Detroit, but snowfall would be higher through the northwest Indiana/southwest Michigan snowbelt area. Can't imagine weather is really a factor here. Maybe the politician just heard that Talgos are Spanish trains, rather than built for service between CHI-MKE-MSN.

The $30 million is what the former state senator Schwarz claims the maintenance facility will cost. We don't know what Talgo says the cost will be in the bid submitted to MIDOT. This is not a long term equipment lease, so investing a lot of money in a maintenance facility in Michigan does not make economic sense. On the other hand, maybe there is a political play going on here and we don't know the whole story yet.

 

[Anderson]

The J-S newspaper keeps writing that MI DOT is interested in "buying" the trainsets. The reporter seems to be stuck on this even when the RFP is quite clear that MIDOT is only seeking to lease rolling stock through the end of 2017 until the new bi-levels are all delivered. There is a difference.

There's a HUGE difference. Talgo will still need to look for a buyer for these 2 trainsets in 2017...

By 2017, it is possible that the situation in the Northwest will be such that WA and OR can arrange a purchase. The other possibility is, of course, that there will be an equipment reshuffle in the Midwest (and/or CA) and that MI might keep using the Talgos for a while.

 

[neroden]

What "rejiggering" of the railroad stations? If it is platform length,

I'm guessing it's platform height. Since the Talgos will only be used for two years -- and probably not *exclusively* -- I think the FRA will probably be lenient.

 

[rickycourtney]

By 2017, it is possible that the situation in the Northwest will be such that WA and OR can arrange a purchase.

The only reason for WSDOT or ODOT to purchase these 2 trainsets would be to replace the 2 Amtrak owned Series VI trainsets. That would only be necessary if WSDOT/ODOT dump Amtrak as the operator of the Cascades in favor of say BNSF.

The other possibility is, of course, that there will be an equipment reshuffle in the Midwest (and/or CA) and that MI might keep using the Talgos for a while.

In my opinion (having been on both the Talgo Series 8 trainsets and the older California Car/Surfliner car trainsets)... the Michigan DOT will want the bi-level equipment.But with this Talgo equipment in operation, they might be able to do the other states a favor and agree to take acceptance of their equipment last. The single level trainsets on the San Joaquin and Pacific Surfliner are proof that bi-level cars are badly needed in California.

 

[Anderson]

There's also been talk of additional trains in WA down the line (I know WA wants a daylight train to Spokane, for example), and an additional pair of sets opens that door once the track improvements are complete. With that said, I was thinking that MI might do something like what you suggest there. The other (not improbable, so long as fare spikes don't keep happening) possibility is that MI might end up needing more equipment than they expected, and the Talgos could end up being a cheaper choice than exercising on the 200-car option.

Edit: Then again, with the RFI, it isn't impossible that WA could opt to turn the Cascades over to a non-Amtrak operator...though that could easily lead to a game of Musical Talgos as WA takes the Talgos from MI while Amtrak moves their Talgos from the Northwest to the Midwest (maybe on the Hiawathas...or into MI, for that matter).

 

[afigg]

What "rejiggering" of the railroad stations? If it is platform length,

I'm guessing it's platform height. Since the Talgos will only be used for two years -- and probably not *exclusively* -- I think the FRA will probably be lenient.

The Talgo trainsets use low level platforms same as the corridor bi-level cars on order. For the Midwest, the Talgos are closer to compliance on the level boarding rule than the Horizons.
The coach portion of the 14 car long Wisconsin Talgo is about 603' long or equivalent to a 7.1 Horizon coach cars*. I figure the former state senator was referring to platform length, but people can always walk forward or back a car or two if stopping at a station with a platform less than 600' long.

*Source January 2014 Train Magazine article on the Talgos being built in Wisconsin which lists the Talgo coach carbody length as 43.1 feet.

 

[afigg]

The only reason for WSDOT or ODOT to purchase these 2 trainsets would be to replace the 2 Amtrak owned Series VI trainsets. That would only be necessary if WSDOT/ODOT dump Amtrak as the operator of the Cascades in favor of say BNSF.

...

In my opinion (having been on both the Talgo Series 8 trainsets and the older California Car/Surfliner car trainsets)... the Michigan DOT will want the bi-level equipment.

But with this Talgo equipment in operation, they might be able to do the other states a favor and agree to take acceptance of their equipment last. The single level trainsets on the San Joaquin and Pacific Surfliner are proof that bi-level cars are badly needed in California.

The WS DOT plans for the Cascades service includes acquiring one additional Talgo trainset to support the increased service frequencies post 2017. If Talgo gets a hefty settlement from WI, WS DOT may be able to buy 2 slightly used trainsets for the price of one.
If ridership on the Cascades corridor starts to take off once the improvement projects are completed amd the Seattle to Portland service is increased to 6 daily trains, acquiring 2 additional Series 8 trainsets could allow for breaking up one of the original set to lengthen the other trainsets for more seats per train.

With all the HSIPR projects forced to be completed by September 2017 (or else) andthe arrival of new equipment, 2017 and 2018 are shaping up to be interesting years for passenger rail in the US.